Miggy

Gentlemen and Ladies. Our club hosts a Defensive Carbine Night every month. Last match was yesterday and a Beretta Storm cleaned the clocks of all AR's and AK for the second time in a row. The word is Beretta Storms will be banned from now on.

We all have a newfound respect for that piece of Italian Plastic.

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You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Randy Cain.

GunFreeZone.net

ExSoldier

From the "Boxotruth:"
Having some time for study of this fascinating sport, I built the Box O' Truth....

The purpose of the Box is to test the penetration of various rounds.

There is only one way to know how much a certain round penetrates. You must shoot it into a medium and see for a fact.

It is an interesting site but it is, IMHO, not the end all be all in this discussion. It is very similar in nature to the tv show "MythBusters."

I have a serious battle rifle. In fact I have a couple and will probably get one or two more. But life isn't always so clear cut. Sometimes there must be compromises in things like compactness...weight....bulk....etc. Shooting a round into a "medium" to test penetration (and leaving it at that) removes the most important factor of all...the human factor.

Ask the Afghan Mujahadeen. They fought and beat the biggest army in the world in a protracted conflict with 18th century technology. Yeah, our STINGERs helped, but the fact is that they Muj had it knocked even before we got in there. They were fighting for a cause for which they were willing to die. The Russkies were fighting because they were ordered to fight.

Underestimating the human factor can be fatal. Ask the folks who were victims on 911. Osama bin Laden fought as a Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. We trained him. We armed him. We set him loose on the world. Then we ignored him. When he became a problem, we underestimated the scope of the threat.

To my knowledge, none of the victims on the ground was killed by gunfire on 911.

It's not about caliber. It's not about penetration of the medium (wow that sounds erotic)....it's still about men and the willingness to pay attention and apply the appropriate level of response. Right then.

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Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

frankmako

was issued a colt smg in 9mm. love the gun. they have their place in the world. you can make any gun work for what you want it to do.

joe/OH

Ex - no doubt - it all boils down to who wants it more (just look at the Revolutionary War). But I think that is drifting from the subject. All things being equal - the man with the better weapon will win the fight. Might as well give yourself every advantage possible.

I'm sure subguns have their place. For me - I can't think of a situation where I would need one - unless I wanted to have fun or play games. But when we start talking about homestead defense type rifles - it's kind of like arguing what's best for concealed carry - a .22 mousegun or a .45. The .22 may be the best choice in very restricted situations - but the .45 is obviously the best tool for the job. (Or the 9mm for you diameter challenged folks. )

Colin

I plan on getting the CX-4 Storm in .40cal, it’s a sexy little carbine and my wife will enjoy shooting it (got to keep her happy) Due to our weird and wonderful laws, the gun is “restricted” (meaning you can only shoot it on the range) but with a longer barrel it becomes unrestricted and can be shot anywhere you are legally allowed to discharge a firearm. Also our law makers saw fit to deem Storm marked magazines as rifle bits and must be pinned at 5 rds, however a pistol mag from a Beretta will instantly allow you to load 10, don’t try to understand it, your brain will hurt and you will be non the wiser.

The gun here has come down in price to around $950, the new barrel installed is another $500, plus shipping, taxes, mags and case I suspect I will be spending around $2,000 for this gun. I already have a SKS & FN, this will be a two legged predator defense gun as opposed to my shotgun for 4 legged predators, plus it will be easy for the wife to shoot. I thought about .4acp, but the mags are as rare as hen’s teeth up here.

DarthMuffin

I have a Sub2k in .40 w/ Glock mags. It goes in my trunk (with 6 15-rd mags) as an emergency gun. It's small and cheap and standardizing on one ammo type is good.

It's also incredibly fun to shoot. The pull is very short, the KT stock extension helps a bunch. I installed a reflex sight on mine and absolutely love it. My trigger was also very heavy from the factory. Regrinding the sear angle helped 100%, and wasn't all that hard to do. The sear on these seems to often come ground at a positive angle, so you're cocking the hammer a little as you release the sear.

However, if I have a choice in a SHTF scenario I'd still pick up my shotgun with buckshot for anything under about 75 yards. Anything over that I'd pick up my HK91...

ssssthesnake

sounds like vancouver has california type silly a-- laws to lol like i can buy a doj aproved ar lower means the 10rnd mag is apoxyed in to the lower this month but next its outlawed and i can have a ten rnd ebg but has to be internal wtf i dont get it sure you dont either good luck

AutoFan

Subguns are fun to shoot, easier to shoot than most pistols, but really don't get much benefit in velocity from the longer barrels. If I needed something between a handgun and a full blown rifle, I'd pick a shotgun or an M1 carbine.

OD

It is a violation, unless the pistol has a 16" barrel.

I can legally own this, but cannot place it on one of my 1911s without the gun having a 16" barrel.

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OD
"Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...."
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"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper

srfl

The Kel Tec 9mm and Olympic Arms 10mm AR upper are the only two pistol carbines that have caught my eye.

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USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947