<![CDATA[DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum - Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics]]> http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/ Discussion of defensive and concealed carry ammunition, ballisitics and reloading. en Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:09:10 GMT vBulletin 480 http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/images/misc/rss.jpg <![CDATA[DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum - Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics]]> http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/ Problem with lead bullets in my pistol http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91291-problem-lead-bullets-my-pistol.html Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:18:10 GMT I would like some help deciphering this situation that happened tonight. Loading Once-fired 45ACP brass with 4.0gr Titegroup, with a lead 200 grain semi-wadcutter. OAL 1.225 Chronograph from my autoloader (Tanfoglio Witness) gave 450 fps instead of the expected 800 fps. 230 grain hardball used to check chrono out of same gun gave 924 fps (intentionally hot load). Next lead bullet gave 454 fps. Same lead bullet and load out of a Glock 45 gave 824fps. Gun has about 800 rounds through it. All jacketed bullets give good performance. Any ideas? I would like some help deciphering this situation that happened tonight.

Loading Once-fired 45ACP brass with 4.0gr Titegroup, with a lead 200 grain semi-wadcutter. OAL 1.225

Chronograph from my autoloader (Tanfoglio Witness) gave 450 fps instead of the expected 800 fps.

230 grain hardball used to check chrono out of same gun gave 924 fps (intentionally hot load).

Next lead bullet gave 454 fps.

Same lead bullet and load out of a Glock 45 gave 824fps.

Gun has about 800 rounds through it. All jacketed bullets give good performance.

Any ideas? ]]> mprasek http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91291-problem-lead-bullets-my-pistol.html 454 Casull vs 44 Mag? http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91255-454-casull-vs-44-mag.html Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:38:07 GMT Just read the Alaska thread... This may have been asked before, if so please point me to the thread... what are the ballistics and pros and cons of each and hich do you prefer and why? I have always wondered about these larger calibers and there may be others to add... comments and opinions welcome! Just read the Alaska thread...

This may have been asked before, if so please point me to the thread... what are the ballistics and pros and cons of each and hich do you prefer and why? I have always wondered about these larger calibers and there may be others to add... comments and opinions welcome! ]]> cmb http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91255-454-casull-vs-44-mag.html Officers kill dog- Stun gun, .45, then 12 gage http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91227-officers-kill-dog-stun-gun-45-then-12-gage.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:23:33 GMT There is much talk about how to stop a charging dog. It seems a stun gun and being shot by a .45 round is inadequate. It took the all mighty 12 gage to do the job...

Thought it was worth sharing:

Quote:
Spokane deputies kill relentless pit bull dog

Posted: 1:00 pm PST November 18, 2009Updated: 1:01 pm PST November 18, 2009

SPOKANE -- Spokane County sheriff's deputies used a stun gun on an attacking pit bull dog. It didn't stop, so they shot it with a .45-caliber handgun, and it still kept coming. They finally killed it with a blast from a 12-gauge shotgun.

The sheriff's office says the dog was killed early Wednesday as deputies responded to a domestic violence incident at a home.

Deputies arrested a 32-year-old man who had been drinking and threatened his family. Two daughters, ages 2 and 3, who were inside the house were unharmed and slept through the dog's shooting.
]]> nutz4utwo http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91227-officers-kill-dog-stun-gun-45-then-12-gage.html PDTV piece on interior wall penetration http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91201-pdtv-piece-interior-wall-penetration.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:21:21 GMT Useful video segment on this weeks Personal Defense TV on ammo penetration through typical interior walls.

They set up two interior walls with two layers of drywall with insulation in between, then an "exterior" wall with drywall and outside sheeting.

9mm JHP - penetrated all three walls, exited the "house".
.45ACP JHP - penetrated all three walls, exited the "house".

.223 55gr FMJ - penetrated two walls, fragmented, did not exit.
.223 soft point - penetrated two walls, fragmented, did not penetrate third wall.

Seems to validate the school of thought that a carbine round is less of an over penetration hazard than many pistol rounds.

Matt ]]> MattLarson http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91201-pdtv-piece-interior-wall-penetration.html Which 9mm ammo? http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91188-9mm-ammo.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:28:08 GMT Ok looking for input on following question need to purchase a couple of boxes of EDC defensive ammo. Looking at 9mm Remington Golden Saber 124gr. +P HP or 9mm Remington Golden Saber 147gr. HP planning to carry in my Sig P250. Or someone have another brand or recommendation completely. Not really worried about cost just want to know hopefully getting some of the best stuff out there in 9mm. Dont want have to use it but if I do want the best if my life or family on the line. Ok looking for input on following question need to purchase a couple of boxes of EDC defensive ammo. Looking at 9mm Remington Golden Saber 124gr. +P HP or 9mm Remington Golden Saber 147gr. HP planning to carry in my Sig P250. Or someone have another brand or recommendation completely. Not really worried about cost just want to know hopefully getting some of the best stuff out there in 9mm.


Dont want have to use it but if I do want the best if my life or family on the line. ]]> volfan http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91188-9mm-ammo.html Favorite Ammo Per Caliber (.38, .357, 9mm): http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91184-favorite-ammo-per-caliber-38-357-9mm.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:34:41 GMT .38 Special - Winchester 110 gr. Silvertips (S&W 442)
.357 Mag - Black Hills 125 gr. (Ruger SP101)
9mm - Double Tap 124 gr. +P (XD9 SC)
I guess I could do worse.
:comeandgetsome: ]]> http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91184-favorite-ammo-per-caliber-38-357-9mm.html Dominion Armament/.380 Ammo http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91174-dominion-armament-380-ammo.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:52:27 GMT Dropped by my favorite Pawn Shop this afternoon and they had some .380/95gr/FMJ/50 round boxes of Dominion Armament Ammo out of San Antonio, TX. Because .380 is so scarce, I bought two boxes to try for range/practice in my LCP. Has anyone shot this ammo before? Feedback on it?? Dropped by my favorite Pawn Shop this afternoon and they had some .380/95gr/FMJ/50 round boxes of Dominion Armament Ammo out of San Antonio, TX. Because .380 is so scarce, I bought two boxes to try for range/practice in my LCP. Has anyone shot this ammo before? Feedback on it?? ]]> First Sgt http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91174-dominion-armament-380-ammo.html Anyone used this ammo/heard any reviews? http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91160-anyone-used-ammo-heard-any-reviews.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:28:47 GMT 40 S&W 115gr Glaser | CORŽBON/Glaser Self Defense | Dakota Ammo

I will moving into an apartment complex soon and was looking for a good round that wont go through my wall into the neighbors apartment.

I am sure SOMEONE will post this, so I will just get it out of the way...yes, I will always aim properly. Sometimes you just can't control what happens when firing on a live target. Trust me, I know. ]]> CarryOrDie http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91160-anyone-used-ammo-heard-any-reviews.html <![CDATA[Difference between Gold Dot LE & not ??]]> http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91157-difference-between-gold-dot-le-not.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:31:20 GMT What is the difference between the Speer Gold Dot .40 155grain "LE Duty Ammo" 50 rounds per box
LE - Gold Dot

And the common Gold dot personal protection
Speer Ammo - Personal Protection

Is one bonded and one not??? ]]> davidw http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91157-difference-between-gold-dot-le-not.html Buying ammo from online auction? http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91092-buying-ammo-online-auction.html Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:17:32 GMT Has anyone regularly bought ammo from places such as gunbroker.com? I am considering it but I have my reservations. How do you know the condition, age etc... Worried that they may have been wet etc... Let me know your experience and how you feel about this. Has anyone regularly bought ammo from places such as gunbroker.com? I am considering it but I have my reservations. How do you know the condition, age etc... Worried that they may have been wet etc...

Let me know your experience and how you feel about this. ]]> davidw http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91092-buying-ammo-online-auction.html 9mm is fine (ballistics data included) http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91063-9mm-fine-ballistics-data-included.html Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:37:33 GMT This is not going to be your "typical" 9mm vs 40 vs 45 flame thread. Instead, I am going to try and show where MODERN ammunition and technique will drop a threat (bad guy) with a 9mm. There is so much misinformation, bias, and B.S. out there that it is not even funny. So many of these "so-called" tests are done in support of one particular caliber instead of evenly across the board.

Let's start off with the basics. Many cops (myself included) use the Speer Gold Dot JHP (jacketed hollow point) in the 9mm, 40 or 45. It is a bonded round and proven to be a high quality defensive design. I will focus on these rounds only for this thread.

Here is step one of the ballistics profile:
9mm +P: 124 grain, muzzle velocity 1220fps, energy 410f/lbs
40 S&W: 165 grain, muzzle velocity 1150fps, energy 484f/lbs
45 ACP: 230 grain, muzzle velocity 890fps, energy 404f/lbs

Why +P 9mm? It is superior to a normal 9mm and still does not have the recoil of the 40 or 45. You'd be a fool not to use +P. Most cops that shoot 9mm are using +P so...

Step 2 of the ballistic profile:
One shot stop % on center mass that struck the heart or severed a major artery/vessel:
9mm +P = 92%
40 S&W = 94%
45 ACP = 94%

Two shots, same criteria:
9mm +P = 99%
40 S&W = 99%
45 ACP = 99%

Note: do not confuse this with instantly stopping the threat. This is where the subject was hit and eventually bled out.

Step 3 of the ballistic profile:
Did the round penetrate beyond the FBI's recommended 12"?
9mm +P = yes
40 S&W = yes
45 ACP = yes

Step 4 of the ballistic profile:
Did the round exit the target after passing through center mass and penetrating beyond 12"?
9mm +P = no
40 S&W = no
45 ACP = no

Thus ends the ballistic profile portion.
Summary: the difference between the three rounds is so minute, it does not really matter which caliber you choose so long as you can hit center mass, especially with a double tap.

Now you will hear others cite passages about energy transfer, kinetic energy, the mythological knockdown power, velocity x expansion, etc. These may (I use may liberally) have a place for argument if your shots are NOT center mass, otherwise don't worry about them. You shoot to kill, and as such keep shooting until the threat is eliminated. You don't stop after the first shot to see if you get the fabled "1 shot stop," nor do you do a physics study on the energy transfer to the target.

Oh, btw, pistol rounds WILL NOT knock a person down by slamming into them. Argue it all you want to, it simply can't happen off physics alone. The correct term is "stopping power." The only guaranteed way a person instantly drops from a pistol shot is if the spine or brain are destroyed by the shot. If it is not a spine or brain shot, some people can keep on fighting, others will stop in their tracks. YOU NEVER KNOW.

Shooting speed and follow-up shots:
The difference in follow-up shot speed is not measured in seconds, but fractions of a second. This is also judged by actually scoring back to back center mass hits. Pull the trigger, land a good hit, manage the recoil, get back on target and land your follow-up center mass as well. Yes the 9mm is the fastest of the three. How much faster? On average around 1/10ths of a second faster than the 45 and 2/10ths faster than the 40. These numbers reflect the average shooter with a factory pistol. If that's all the difference, why worry about speed? There are two types of shooters in a gun fight: the quick (who may still be injured) and the dead.

Overall summary: pick a caliber that you are comfortable with, can score multiple center mass hits with, and can afford to practice with.

Ignore the fanboys and hype. So many cling to the 45 is king because of the military's use of ball (non-hollow point) ammo. Ball ammo is a different story entirely.

If you choose to carry a 9mm, use high quality +P ammo, practice until you can land multiple center mass hits quickly, and be confident in your ability.

Most handgun shootouts are from 7 yards and CLOSER. At that range, it is point shooting, where you get near max velocity and energy with all three rounds. If you really want to train to win, practice the Mozambique shooting drill: 2 to the chest, 1 to the head.

I do, and use all three calibers (M&P .40, GLOCK 34 9mm, Springfield XD 45). I prefer the 9mm. ]]> CSI http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91063-9mm-fine-ballistics-data-included.html <![CDATA[Energy after "Over-penetration"]]> http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91042-energy-after-over-penetration.html Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:33:52 GMT Just wondering if anyone has done any testing to see what kind of energy/velocity/momentum rounds have after passing through a body?

I have heard time and again that you don't want over-penetration and hit an innocent bystander behind the BG. I can understand this on a fmj battle rifle or medium game hunting rifle round, but is this really a concern for handgun rounds? ]]> AutoFan http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91042-energy-after-over-penetration.html Winchester Ranger SXT Ammunition? http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91011-winchester-ranger-sxt-ammunition.html Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:38:31 GMT There is a serious shortage of premium defensive ammo north of the 49th parallel, so it's a sellers market.

I picked up some Winchester Ranger 9mm 147gr SXT rounds and paid through the nose for them. The guy said they were the replacement for the Black Talon.

Good stuff? Crap?? I still have some Hydra Shocks left. Should I carry them instead? ]]> GunnyBunny http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/91011-winchester-ranger-sxt-ammunition.html +P vs Standard Pressure http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/90983-p-vs-standard-pressure.html Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:05:33 GMT I recently switched from carrying a Taurus 709 loaded with 147g SGD's standard pressure. I never considered +P ammo as the gun wasnt rated for it. Then I switched to a S&W 908. The 908 is "kind of" rated for +P. S&W says that you can use a "limited amount" of +p ammo but not to use it all the time.

So thus the question becomes is it worth changing over from standard pressure to +P ammo for defense purposes? I am inclined to stick with standard pressure as I think it would be eaiser to put more rounds on target in less time because of recoil but I don't wan't to rule out +p if it is mpre effective. Since we all know that hanguns aren't the instant death rays portrayed in the movies I want to milk every bit of performance I can out of it. ]]> Rollo http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/90983-p-vs-standard-pressure.html 45 ACP Fiocchi 230gr XTP http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/90977-45-acp-fiocchi-230gr-xtp.html Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:37:09 GMT ATG just started to carry this stuff. Anybody know about or use it? Thanks, ATG just started to carry this stuff. Anybody know about or use it?
Thanks, ]]> johnsonabq http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/90977-45-acp-fiocchi-230gr-xtp.html