Blind guy gets handgun permit.

Pete · May 16th, 2007, 11:17 AM

Well, after the recent discussions here on how the accuracy required to qualify for a permit could be accomplished by a blind person...

Quote:

Blind Man Says Utah Gun Permit Does Not Make Him Dangerous

May 15th, 2007 @ 2:38pm
FARGO, N.D. (AP) -- A blind man who has concealed weapons permits from North Dakota and Utah says he's not a danger to society, even though he can't see the gun he's shooting.

Carey McWilliams, 33, says he has followed all rules, and he wants Minnesota to join other states that have granted him a concealed weapons permit. He says he was rejected by a Minnesota county sheriff and a judge in that state.

"I'm trying to prove a point that people without sight still can carry (a gun) because brains are more important than eyesight in securing public safety," McWilliams said. "The shooter at Virginia Tech had really good eyesight and he killed 32 people."

Sheriff Bill Bergquist of Clay County, Minn., said he felt bad about denying a permit for McWilliams.

"He's a super nice guy," Bergquist said. "But the application states that a person should be able to show proficiency on the firing range and a proficiency of the weapons. That's the issue.

"Sometimes I have to ask myself, what is right in this case? I felt when I denied it, he could have his day in court," the sheriff said.

McWilliams said he completed the required class and shooting exercise by Paul Horvick, a National Rifle Association instructor. Horvick said he believes gun rights are private and would not comment on anyone he has taught or tested. Documents on Minnesota weapons hearings are sealed.

McWilliams said he uses special low-range, hollow-point bullets that are effective only in tight quarters.

"If I use a gun it will be at point-blank range, period," he said. "A sighted shooter is probably more dangerous because they can see something scary and pull their gun in haste."

Under Minnesota law, an applicant must be issued a license for a gun or a concealed weapon if he or she completes the class and shooting exercise and passes a background check -- unless "there exists a substantial likelihood that the applicant is a danger to self or the public if authorized to carry a pistol under permit."

McWilliams believes Minnesota officials have violated his constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

"It's nobody business that I'm blind," he said.

McWilliams lives in a Fargo trailer park with his wife, Victoria. A neighbor, Jon Storley, accompanied McWilliams during his appeal to the Minnesota District Court.

"He's not a nut, he's not a weirdo, he's not a freak," said Storley, a cab driver and rock musician. "I'm not a lawyer, but in this case I believe the judge was legislating from the bench."

Storley also said he doesn't blame Bergquist and Kirk for their decisions, calling the case "a kettle of worms."

The permit obtained from Utah is recognized in 30 other states, including Minnesota. McWilliams said he had to complete a "firearms familiarity course" before receiving the Utah license.

"Basically they just passed around a couple of guns," McWilliams said.

McWilliams, who got his North Dakota permit in 2001, testified during the 2005 North Dakota legislative session against a proposal to drop the written part of the concealed weapons test. He told lawmakers it would allow people who are ignorant about firearm regulations to get permits. The test was eliminated.

The Legislature also decided to keep individual information about weapons permits confidential, said Liz Brocker, spokeswoman for the attorney general's office.

"All I can tell you is the total number of permits that have been issued" -- 8,030, she said.

McWilliams lost his eyesight when he was 10 years old, after a series of headaches and gradual deterioration. It was a mystery to doctors.

He said he was a victim of domestic violence growing up and was stalked by gang members.

"I've had situations where I would have felt threatened if I hadn't been carrying," he said.

McWilliams has written two books, including an autobiography published earlier this year that talks about his experiences in sky diving, scuba diving and deep sea fishing. He was in two segments of Michael Moore's antigun movie, "Bowling for Columbine," including a scene showing him cradling an AK-47 assault rifle.

Much of his autobiography is about his weapons training and testing.

"My permits together allow me, with reciprocity, to carry my gun in 30 states, one of which could be yours," he writes. "But never fear, with my extensive experience in firearms, I have take all reasonable measures to ensure the safety of others."

LINK

ccw9mm · May 16th, 2007, 11:27 AM

It's the distinction between rights and needing to ask permission. Puts things in perspective, though, doesn't it? Blind shooter next to me? So long as he's got a good head on his shoulders and only shoots who attacks him ... more power to him.

PapaScout · May 16th, 2007, 11:48 AM

Well, it pains me to report that I have lost several games of pool to a guy who is legally blind. Fuzzy shapes and colors were enough for him to hand my hat to me on a silver platter.

Most attacks happen at night when it's hard to see anyway. At contact ranges is he really that much worse off than those of us who are sighted?

limatunes · May 16th, 2007, 12:01 PM

The blind, the deaf, the mute, the crippled... they all have their full mental capabilities and it always AMAZES me how well they adjust to being in their condition.

They can do INCREDIBLE things and they can be the most innovative and amazing people and INTELLIGENT. I have no problem with a blind person having a gun as long as he has the mental capacity to understand what he's doing, why he's doing it and has trained with it to accommodate for his loss of sight.

Sonic Misfit · May 16th, 2007, 12:37 PM

He can still probably shoot better than half the people I see on the range.

Rights are rights...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not limited by a person's handicaps.

Pete · May 16th, 2007, 12:45 PM

I'm glad everyone (so far) approves of this, it made me happy to read the article.

But I do feel sorry for him that he doesn't get to see his guns, I like just looking at guns.

QKShooter · May 16th, 2007, 12:54 PM

If this guy is totally blind then no way on Earth would I issue him a license to carry a deadly weapon.

In fact whoever issued him a LTC should be sued in court.

It sounds real cute and politically correct but it's an insane idea.

He would not be able to tell what other innocent people are in the immediate vicinity.

He would not be able to tell if there were a group of little kids standing right behind his attacker.

He would not be able to make a qualified "Shoot - No Shoot" determination.

He would not be qualified to make a ricochet determination.

He would not be able to tell if there was a tanker truck filled with Gasoline or Hydrogen rolling down the street.

Those are extreme examples but, I could think of 100 other examples where eyesight would be critical in a deadly threat self~defensive situation.

Yeah...Great! - Point Blank Range Only and the bullet completely sails through the perp and into a school bus window.

Let's say there was a mad dog running around attacking people and the dog started heading toward the blind guy - a passerby with only moments to react runs over and grabs the blind dude to quickly move him to safety...do you think the passerby - a Good Samaritan should catch a bullet in the heart (point blank) for his trouble?...I don't.
The blind person (with only seconds to react) would only know that he was being grabbed/accosted and would likely react by presenting his firearm and pulling the trigger in a panic situation.

There are way too many scenarios where eyesight is absolutely critical to the proper and responsible use of deadly force.

No Thanks and please do not be offended...Mr. Blind Guy - Nothing Personal but, Stick with a stun gun or anything else less than lethal.

If the guy is totally blind and wants to shoot supervised at the range then I'm 100% cool with that.
Out in public...I can't (in good conscience) bite on saying OK to it.

azchevy · May 16th, 2007, 12:56 PM

Sorry but NO WAY I want this guy having a gun in public and even attempting to use it in self defense.

rstickle · May 16th, 2007, 02:02 PM

The only question I have right now is was he given a chance to show his skills on the range as required by the law?

Sorry, two questions......... How'd he do?

Answer those and then come back and discuss whether he gets a permit. I've seen blind folks do some amazing things using sound as a substitute.

plblark · May 16th, 2007, 02:06 PM

I know his instructor. The instructor is a stand up guy and a good instructor. I have not asked him for details as it's none of my business and it should be confidential.

May 16th, 2007, 11:27 AM	#2
ccw9mm VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Oregon USA Posts: 5,943	It's the distinction between rights and needing to ask permission. Puts things in perspective, though, doesn't it? Blind shooter next to me? So long as he's got a good head on his shoulders and only shoots who attacks him ... more power to him. __________________ Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it. Reports: CZ P01 pt1, pt2. Thoughts: Justifiable self defense. Reality: Disarming citizens only results in more victims. Tip: Use the <search> feature.

May 16th, 2007, 11:48 AM	#3
PapaScout Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 569	Well, it pains me to report that I have lost several games of pool to a guy who is legally blind. Fuzzy shapes and colors were enough for him to hand my hat to me on a silver platter. Most attacks happen at night when it's hard to see anyway. At contact ranges is he really that much worse off than those of us who are sighted? __________________ "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

May 16th, 2007, 12:54 PM	#7
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 19,811	Sorry - Totally Blind - No Way. If this guy is totally blind then no way on Earth would I issue him a license to carry a deadly weapon. In fact whoever issued him a LTC should be sued in court. It sounds real cute and politically correct but it's an insane idea. He would not be able to tell what other innocent people are in the immediate vicinity. He would not be able to tell if there were a group of little kids standing right behind his attacker. He would not be able to make a qualified "Shoot - No Shoot" determination. He would not be qualified to make a ricochet determination. He would not be able to tell if there was a tanker truck filled with Gasoline or Hydrogen rolling down the street. Those are extreme examples but, I could think of 100 other examples where eyesight would be critical in a deadly threat self~defensive situation. Yeah...Great! - Point Blank Range Only and the bullet completely sails through the perp and into a school bus window. Let's say there was a mad dog running around attacking people and the dog started heading toward the blind guy - a passerby with only moments to react runs over and grabs the blind dude to quickly move him to safety...do you think the passerby - a Good Samaritan should catch a bullet in the heart (point blank) for his trouble?...I don't. The blind person (with only seconds to react) would only know that he was being grabbed/accosted and would likely react by presenting his firearm and pulling the trigger in a panic situation. There are way too many scenarios where eyesight is absolutely critical to the proper and responsible use of deadly force. No Thanks and please do not be offended...Mr. Blind Guy - Nothing Personal but, Stick with a stun gun or anything else less than lethal. If the guy is totally blind and wants to shoot supervised at the range then I'm 100% cool with that. Out in public...I can't (in good conscience) bite on saying OK to it. __________________ Support Our Military. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May 16th, 2007, 12:56 PM	#8
azchevy Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oceanfront Property Posts: 506	Sorry but NO WAY I want this guy having a gun in public and even attempting to use it in self defense. __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."- Edmund Burke

May 16th, 2007, 02:02 PM	#9
rstickle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Laurel, MD Posts: 9,882	The only question I have right now is was he given a chance to show his skills on the range as required by the law? Sorry, two questions......... How'd he do? Answer those and then come back and discuss whether he gets a permit. I've seen blind folks do some amazing things using sound as a substitute. __________________ Rick EOD - Initial success or total failure

May 16th, 2007, 12:37 PM	#5
Sonic Misfit Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 411	He can still probably shoot better than half the people I see on the range. Rights are rights...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not limited by a person's handicaps.

May 16th, 2007, 12:45 PM	#6
Pete Ex Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: USA Posts: 2,572	I'm glad everyone (so far) approves of this, it made me happy to read the article. But I do feel sorry for him that he doesn't get to see his guns, I like just looking at guns.

May 16th, 2007, 02:06 PM	#10
plblark Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 263	I know his instructor. The instructor is a stand up guy and a good instructor. I have not asked him for details as it's none of my business and it should be confidential. __________________ For MN specific carry information and a great shooting community, check out forum.twincitiescarry.com

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