Study: Soldiers Want Deadlier Guns

teknoid · May 25th, 2007, 05:14 PM

I've seen references to this topic on the board, and thought the opinions of the ones on the ground would be of interest.

From: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...tml?ESRC=eb.nl

My son is a Marine, and I found this part very disturbing:

"The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight."

Not a good recommendation for keeping the present arms.

azchevy · May 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM

They should have NEVER gotten rid of the 30/06 and .45 rounds

Sig 210 · May 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM

"Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails.""

""Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached.""

The SAW is a very good automatic weapon. Sounds like the troops are bringing a lot of unnecessary grief on themselves.

Redneck Repairs · May 25th, 2007, 05:39 PM

Damm where to start on this hachet job of reporting lol .

Quote:

Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons

might be a starting point .. but hold on ... they also seemingly said

Quote:

though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.

as well . additionaly this was quoted

Quote:

Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.

Now maby its just me , but somehow the percent does not add up . I am not a fan of the ar system , or the beretta pistol , but both seem to work HK and some others want to " fix " our standard m4/16 now but guys , some in the pacific theater hated the garand too because it took to much training and cleaning to run . There is huge money involved in a new service rifle , or mods to our current one ( which is all that the hk is ) . Lets be slow on this and when we change go to a more effective round as well .

Intentional Flincher · May 25th, 2007, 06:54 PM

How can they say this

Quote:

The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight.

And this

Quote:

Though vocal critics of the M4 say it's prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat.

And this

Quote:

But of those with malfunctioning M4s, nearly 20 percent said they were "unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage," the report said.

And then say this

Quote:

The survey lends weight to Army claims that current-issued weapons are effective despite growing criticism from Soldiers and lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the service should re-assess the standard M4 - as well as the M9 pistol.

P.S. How much slower could we be on this issue? There have been reliability problems with the M16/M4 platform since before I was born.
Also from what I understand, the HK really isn't very much like an M16 in operating principle at all.

Redneck Repairs · May 25th, 2007, 07:08 PM

Internal , all the hk does is trade more moveing parts for the action that we have now . Instead of gas running the action , the hk system ( as all " improved piston systems " do is put a piston in instead of a gas tube that channels gas to impact the bolt carrior group . All auto / semi auto systems need cleaned . even the famed ak system ( which uses a similar gas piston and foreward vent system to the hk rebuild of the ar top end ) . Our " AR " system is imho too tight with too fine accuracy for a good battle rifle . but is nice that you can take a marksman , and a cheap scope , and make what amounts to a ww2 level sniper out of the best shot in the platoon too . The ar platform is picky about being cleaned and lubed , but at 200 meters your average marine can shoot a helmet, first time , every time . and normaly there is a bad guy head in said helmet . There are allways new arms that are " better " for us to buy , but my opinion is we need to stay where we are untill we are ready to change cal too , then look at the envelope .

HotGuns · May 25th, 2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Soldiers Want Deadlier Guns

Of course they do.

Anybody that has even been in a shootout wants "deadlier guns".

It aint like TV where everyone gets shot and quite moving immediatley. People that have been shot will continue to shoot back if possible.

Personally, if I had to shoot someone, I'd want their arms and legs and head separating from their torso's and landing several yards away. At least you'd know that you hit em.

Miggy · May 25th, 2007, 08:09 PM

Other than I would like to see the raw data so I could make my own conclussions, I have to add that I've been hearing for a long while now about the HK system and not in a good light. First, some people I trust have issued very nasty comments about the reliabilty of the system in non-combat conditions. Also, there is a heavy lobbying from HK to be the new weapons system in competition with Barret's system so I'd take the "report" with a huge grain of salt.

And as for more "deadly" weapon... once again it is not the weapon but the ammo. Screw the Geneva convention and issue hollowpoints.

randytulsa2 · May 25th, 2007, 08:29 PM

They want deadlier weapons and we should see to it that they get them. Period.

I don't know which weapons, exactly, but I do have some idea (based on the reports) of what not to get.

.45's, to begin with. H&K USP? Maybe so, but spendy. Springfield XD? Probably a great choice. Glock? Fine. Sig? Good choice, no doubt, but spendy. Ruger? Why not? Made in USA, solid, reliable, get a high enough capacity (no less than 10 rounds, more if possible).

Rifles? M14. FN-FAL. H&K G3. Garand (if modified for higher capacity...possible? I dunno.). CETME? Whatever. Whatever it is, make it a killer-diller, ++++.

I agree about the hollow points for the pistols. I'd also say soft-points for the rifles.

You want the dudes you're shooting at to S-T-O-P, with extreme prejduice. War isn't a game. It also calls for unrestrained use of brutality and force. Period. It is, as Billy Sherman (not a favorite of mine, as I consider myself something of a son of the South) put it, "cruelty....it cannot be refined".

BTW, until we are willing to do what is NECESSARY to win, we'll lose.... I have an old Von Clausewitz text that says it well: "If one side uses force without compunction, undeterred by the bloodshed it involves, while the other side refrains, the first will gain the upper hand."

That point was eloquently illustrated in "Apocolypse Now", in the scene where Sheen hear Brando tell about the VC amuptating the arms of children vaccinated by the Americans.

Brando talks about the pure "crystalline" evil exhibited by such acts, then refers to it as genius- - and observes, quite correctly, that the U.S. was just not committed enough to defeat enemies who were willing to do such things.
...

I was against the war (our squeamishness about doing what is necessary was one reason), and I still am, but if you're gonna do it, DO IT RIGHT. It'll get over with faster, and with less loss of life.

But we won't.

Redneck Repairs · May 25th, 2007, 08:40 PM

HK is really good at keeping stuff out of the hands of us peons , and tat the same time lobbying for thier system in unconventional ways . Having shot a hk top end on a older m16 bottom ( no burst control ) . I have to say it is as good but no better than a colt top end . the hk piston had some difficulty with cow **** when thrown into a reclimation pond , but then so did the original colt top end , the colt came back into service faster tho .

May 25th, 2007, 05:14 PM	#1
teknoid Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lower Slobovia Posts: 227	Study: Soldiers Want Deadlier Guns I've seen references to this topic on the board, and thought the opinions of the ones on the ground would be of interest. From: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...tml?ESRC=eb.nl My son is a Marine, and I found this part very disturbing: "The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight." Not a good recommendation for keeping the present arms.

May 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM	#2
azchevy Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oceanfront Property Posts: 506	They should have NEVER gotten rid of the 30/06 and .45 rounds __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."- Edmund Burke

May 25th, 2007, 08:09 PM	#8
Miggy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Miami-Dade, FL Posts: 4,393	Other than I would like to see the raw data so I could make my own conclussions, I have to add that I've been hearing for a long while now about the HK system and not in a good light. First, some people I trust have issued very nasty comments about the reliabilty of the system in non-combat conditions. Also, there is a heavy lobbying from HK to be the new weapons system in competition with Barret's system so I'd take the "report" with a huge grain of salt. And as for more "deadly" weapon... once again it is not the weapon but the ammo. Screw the Geneva convention and issue hollowpoints. __________________ You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming. Randy Cain. GunFreeZone.net

May 25th, 2007, 08:29 PM	#9
randytulsa2 Distinguished Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,443	They want deadlier weapons and we should see to it that they get them. Period. I don't know which weapons, exactly, but I do have some idea (based on the reports) of what not to get. .45's, to begin with. H&K USP? Maybe so, but spendy. Springfield XD? Probably a great choice. Glock? Fine. Sig? Good choice, no doubt, but spendy. Ruger? Why not? Made in USA, solid, reliable, get a high enough capacity (no less than 10 rounds, more if possible). Rifles? M14. FN-FAL. H&K G3. Garand (if modified for higher capacity...possible? I dunno.). CETME? Whatever. Whatever it is, make it a killer-diller, ++++. I agree about the hollow points for the pistols. I'd also say soft-points for the rifles. You want the dudes you're shooting at to S-T-O-P, with extreme prejduice. War isn't a game. It also calls for unrestrained use of brutality and force. Period. It is, as Billy Sherman (not a favorite of mine, as I consider myself something of a son of the South) put it, "cruelty....it cannot be refined". BTW, until we are willing to do what is NECESSARY to win, we'll lose.... I have an old Von Clausewitz text that says it well: "If one side uses force without compunction, undeterred by the bloodshed it involves, while the other side refrains, the first will gain the upper hand." That point was eloquently illustrated in "Apocolypse Now", in the scene where Sheen hear Brando tell about the VC amuptating the arms of children vaccinated by the Americans. Brando talks about the pure "crystalline" evil exhibited by such acts, then refers to it as genius- - and observes, quite correctly, that the U.S. was just not committed enough to defeat enemies who were willing to do such things. ... I was against the war (our squeamishness about doing what is necessary was one reason), and I still am, but if you're gonna do it, DO IT RIGHT. It'll get over with faster, and with less loss of life. But we won't. __________________ "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes." Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed. Last edited by Tangle; May 30th, 2007 at 12:00 PM. Reason: I deleted, "So until we blow up their women and children in their mosques, they will (continue to) win."

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May 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM	#3
Sig 210 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southwestern OK Posts: 633	"Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."" ""Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached."" The SAW is a very good automatic weapon. Sounds like the troops are bringing a lot of unnecessary grief on themselves.

May 25th, 2007, 07:08 PM	#6
Redneck Repairs VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,141	Internal , all the hk does is trade more moveing parts for the action that we have now . Instead of gas running the action , the hk system ( as all " improved piston systems " do is put a piston in instead of a gas tube that channels gas to impact the bolt carrior group . All auto / semi auto systems need cleaned . even the famed ak system ( which uses a similar gas piston and foreward vent system to the hk rebuild of the ar top end ) . Our " AR " system is imho too tight with too fine accuracy for a good battle rifle . but is nice that you can take a marksman , and a cheap scope , and make what amounts to a ww2 level sniper out of the best shot in the platoon too . The ar platform is picky about being cleaned and lubed , but at 200 meters your average marine can shoot a helmet, first time , every time . and normaly there is a bad guy head in said helmet . There are allways new arms that are " better " for us to buy , but my opinion is we need to stay where we are untill we are ready to change cal too , then look at the envelope .

May 25th, 2007, 08:40 PM	#10
Redneck Repairs VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,141	HK is really good at keeping stuff out of the hands of us peons , and tat the same time lobbying for thier system in unconventional ways . Having shot a hk top end on a older m16 bottom ( no burst control ) . I have to say it is as good but no better than a colt top end . the hk piston had some difficulty with cow **** when thrown into a reclimation pond , but then so did the original colt top end , the colt came back into service faster tho .