Open Carry - What do you think? - Page 10

Bark'n · July 3rd, 2008, 11:00 PM

I don't have a problem with OC.

It's not for me, as I like having the tactical advantage I believe concealed carry affords me. If I lived in a state where OC was legal and accepted, I would still carry concealed.

I also wouldn't freak out or feel uncomfortable by seeing people OC.

Ridgeline · July 3rd, 2008, 11:06 PM

I would vote to allow it, even tho I would never need to CO, unless while hunting maybe. Why tip your hand to a potential BG, doesn't make any sense to me, but it would solve the printing problem.

bmcgilvray · July 4th, 2008, 12:00 PM

Our nation should be free to carry openly. I'm uninterested in practicing open carry socially. I particularly don't want anyone to know.

AzQkr · July 4th, 2008, 04:17 PM

Here's two articles on open carry in recent news:

My 20-month-old nephew loves Elmo and Dora. He also has started making explosion and gunfire noises. I get the inevitability of little boys' fascination with guns.

What I can't figure out are the men and sometimes women who don't grow out of the gun-crazy stage of childhood, who need to have a handgun on their hips at all times, who need their neighbors to notice.

Ten of them stormed the West Valley City Council meeting last week to back up Travis Deveraux, a 36-year-old credit card company worker, who was detained by police in December while exercising with his Smith & Wesson.

"I don't blame them for being a little bit extra careful," Deveraux said. "But there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful."

I thought there was no such thing as "too careful" - especially with a gun. But the OpenCarry crowd's literal interpretation of the "right to bear arms" and self-appointment as our "well-regulated militia" undercuts careful law enforcement, membership in a civil society and even reason.

It's in the Constitution, their thinking goes. They are "peaceably going about their business while armed," standing on the watchtower, the last line of defense against government tyranny and crazed criminals. We should thank them. I understand the thrill of firing a Glock (I've done it), the euphoria of hitting the center of a target (and that, too), generations of family deer-hunting weekends and the legitimate self-preservation instincts of Utah's elected concealed weapon carriers.

But the Open Carry movement is a mystery to me. What kind of psychology - overcompensation, paranoia, antisocial personality - is behind that thinking?

Steven Gunn, an attorney and board member of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah, believes it's pure ego. "We have inconsiderate boors walking around on the street carrying firearms openly," says Gunn. "I don't think they are truly afraid for their safety. Most of them are trying to make a statement about the Second Amendment."

Anthropologist Charles Springwood says open carriers are trying to "naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood."

OpenCarry.org (OCDO), run by two Virginia gun lovers, claims 4,000 members nationwide. According to the Legal Community Against Violence in San Francisco, just seven states prohibit packing in public and eight restrict carrying handguns openly without a permit.

Utah's Open Carry activists put on a show for the Los Angeles Times a few weeks ago, trying to appear warm and fuzzy, shopping at Costco, just like you and me - but with their handguns flapping in the breeze. They meet once a month at restaurants like Denny's and Sweet Tomatoes to socialize. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it,' " Kevin Jensen told the Times reporter.

But that's just what the showdown in West Valley City was about. The cowed mayor and City Council members referred the case to the officers' professional standards review board. Police are struggling to strike a balance between gun owners' rights and those of the rest of us.

"There has to be some common sense on their part, too; they have to take into consideration the concern that they cause other citizens," says Layton Police Chief Terry Keefe. "I do not walk around when I'm off-duty with a weapon displayed."

Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank would rather gun owners get concealed weapon permits than carry openly. "In light of Trolley Square, mall shootings, school shootings, anyone walking around with a gun potentially creates a lot of phone calls for us," Burbank says. "How do you expect an officer to deal with that - other than to point a gun at them and go through the process [of elimination]? There's no other way to make that determination safely without putting officers at risk."

Utah lawmakers set up this stalemate when they wrote the state's anything-goes concealed weapon law. They deliberately left open a loophole for those who carry their guns out in the open. Under Utah law, open carriers must be 18 years old and keep their bullets out of the chamber. That's it. No training, no background check required.

"Second Amendment questions aside," says Springwood, a professor at Illinois Wesleyan University, "the real debate seems to me a cultural and social one: Do we want a society in which it is an unconscious emblem of everyday life that folks move about with 'portable killing machines' strapped to their bodies?"

Legislators already have made that decision for us; we're living in the modern heart of the wild, wild West.
_______________________________________________

and this one from the Los Angeles Times:

Those who wear their guns in full sight are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm a common accessory.
By Nicholas Riccardi, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
June 7, 2008

PROVO, UTAH -- For years, Kevin Jensen carried a pistol everywhere he went, tucked in a shoulder holster beneath his clothes.

In hot weather the holster was almost unbearable. Pressed against Jensen's skin, the firearm was heavy and uncomfortable. Hiding the weapon made him feel like a criminal.

FOR THE RECORD:
Gun laws: An article in Saturday's Section A about people who openly carry handguns said the practice was permissible in California only if the firearm was not loaded. In cities within the state, publicly displayed guns must not be loaded. In unincorporated areas, loaded guns can be carried openly unless a local ordinance prohibits it. —

Then one evening he stumbled across a site that urged gun owners to do something revolutionary: Carry your gun openly for the world to see as you go about your business.

In most states there's no law against that.

Jensen thought about it and decided to give it a try. A couple of days later, his gun was visible, hanging from a black holster strapped around his hip as he walked into a Costco. His heart raced as he ordered a Polish dog at the counter. No one called the police. No one stopped him.

Now Jensen carries his Glock 23 openly into his bank, restaurants and shopping centers. He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally. He and his wife, Clachelle, drop off their 5-year-old daughter at elementary school with pistols hanging from their hip holsters, and have never received a complaint or a wary look.

Jensen said he tries not to flaunt his gun. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it,' " he said.

But he and others who publicly display their guns have a common purpose.

The Jensens are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm as common an accessory as an iPod. Called "open carry" by its supporters, the movement has attracted grandparents, graduate students and lifelong gun enthusiasts like the Jensens.

"What we're trying to say is, 'Hey, we're normal people who carry guns,' " said Travis Deveraux, 36, of West Valley, a Salt Lake City suburb. Deveraux works for a credit card company and sometimes walks around town wearing a cowboy hat and packing a pistol in plain sight. "We want the public to understand it's not just cops who can carry guns."

Police acknowledge the practice is legal, but some say it makes their lives tougher.

Police Chief John Greiner recalled that last year in Ogden, Utah, a man was openly carrying a shotgun on the street. When officers pulled up to ask him about the gun, he started firing. Police killed the man.

Greiner tells the story as a lesson for gun owners. "We've changed over the last 200 years from the days of the wild, wild West," Greiner said. "Most people don't openly carry. . . . If [people] truly want to open carry, they ought to expect they'll be challenged more until people become comfortable with it."

Jensen and others argue that police shouldn't judge the gun, but rather the actions of the person carrying it. Jensen, 28, isn't opposed to attention, however. It's part of the reason he brought his gun out in the open.

"At first, [open carry] was a little novelty," he said. "Then I realized the chances of me educating someone are bigger than ever using it [the gun] in self-defense. If it's in my pants or under my shirt I'm probably not going to do anything with it."

As Clachelle pushed the shopping cart holding their two young children during a recent trip to Costco, her husband admired the new holster wrapped around her waist. "I like the look of that low-rise gun belt," he said.

The Jensens' pistols were snapped into holsters attached to black belts that hug their waists. Guns are a fact of life in their household. Their 5-year-old daughter, Sierra, has a child-sized .22 rifle she handles only in her parents' presence.

Clachelle is the daughter of a Central California police chief and began shooting when she was about Sierra's age. She would take her parents' gun when she went out and hide it in her purse because the firearm made her feel safer.

"I love 'em," Clachelle said. "I wouldn't ever be without them."

Kevin Jensen's first encounter with guns came when he was 11: His grandfather died and left him a 16-gauge shotgun. The gun stayed locked away but fascinated Jensen through his teen years. He convinced his older brother to take him shooting in the countryside near their home in a small town south of Salt Lake City.

"I immediately fell in love with it," said Jensen, a lean man with close-cropped hair and a precise gait that is a reminder of his five years in the Army Reserve. "I like things that go boom."

Jensen kept as many as 10 guns in the couple's 1930s-style bungalow in Santaquin, 21 miles southwest of Provo. In January 2005, he decided to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, mainly for self-defense.

"I'm not going to hide in the corner of a school and mall and wait for the shooting to stop," he said.

When Jensen bought a Glock and the dealer threw in an external hip holster, he began researching the idea of carrying the gun in public and came upon OCDO.

Its website, run by two Virginia gun enthusiasts, claims 4,000 members nationwide. It summarizes the varying laws in each state that permit or forbid the practice. People everywhere have the right to prohibit weapons from their property, and firearms are often banned in government buildings such as courthouses.

According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely ban the practice, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns.

Utah has no law prohibiting anyone from carrying a gun in public, as long as it is two steps from firing -- for example, the weapon may have a loaded clip but must be uncocked, with no bullets in the chamber. Those who obtain a concealed-weapons permit in Utah don't have that restriction. Also, youths under 18 can carry a gun openly with parental approval and a supervising adult in close proximity.

Most of the time people don't notice Jensen's gun. That's not uncommon, said John Pierce, a law student and computer consultant in Virginia who is a co-founder of OpenCarry.org.

"People are carrying pagers, BlackBerrys, cellphones," Pierce said. "They see a black lump on your belt and their eyes slide off."

Sometimes the reactions are comical. Bill White, a 24-year-old graduate student in ancient languages at the University of Colorado at Boulder, wears his Colt pistol out in the open when he goes to his local Starbucks. Earlier this month a tourist from California spotted him and snapped a photo on his cellphone.

"He said it would prove he was in the Wild West," White recalled.

But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood.

An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.

Deveraux saw the incident as not giving ground on his rights. "I'm proud that happened," he said.

Cases like this are talked about during regular gatherings of those who favor open carry. At a Sweet Tomatoes restaurant in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy, more than 40 civilians with guns strapped to their hips took over a corner of the restaurant, eating pasta and boisterously sharing stories.

Hassles with law enforcement were a badge of honor for some.

Travis White, 19, who has ear and chin piercings, congratulated Brandon Trask, 21, on carrying openly for the first time that night. "Just wait until you get confronted by a cop," White said. "It'll make you feel brave."

Having pistols strapped around their waists made Shel Anderson, 67, and his wife, Kaye, 63, feel more secure. Longtime recreational shooters, they began to carry their pistols openly after a spate of home-invasion robberies in their neighborhood. The firearms can serve as a warning to predators, they said.

"I decided I want to have as much of an advantage as I can have in this day and age," said Kaye Anderson, a retired schoolteacher.

Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster.

The gangly graphics designer grew up in a home without guns and didn't think of owning one until he started dating a woman -- now his wife -- who lived in a rough neighborhood. One night last year, a youth had his head beaten in with a pipe outside her bedroom window. The next day, Thompson got a concealed-weapons permit.

Thompson found out about open carry last month while reading gun sites. He's become a convert. He likes the statement it makes.

Glancing around the restaurant, as armed families like the Jensens dined with men in cowboy hats and professionals like himself, Thompson smiled.

"I love this," he said. "I want people to be aware that crazy people are not the only ones with guns. Normal people carry them."

The Jensens' daughter, Sierra, and newborn son, Tyler, began to get restless, so the couple bundled up the children and pulled the manager of the restaurant aside to thank her for hosting them.

A patron appeared at Jensen's side and began to berate him. "What you guys are doing here is completely unacceptable," he said. "There are children here."

Jensen said that everyone in the restaurant had a legal right to carry. The man didn't back down and the Jensens left.

Days later, Jensen was still thinking about the reaction and the man's belief that guns are unsafe.

"People can feel that way and it doesn't bother me," he said. "If they have irrational fears, that's fine."
_______________________________________________

Brownie

LongRider · July 5th, 2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duisburg

I think that it OC'ing could scare the living bajeebers out of people who hate guns and think all guns are evil and are made to kill people even if it were totally legal where done.

I think one of the primary reasons to open carry is to show people that reasonable law abiding people carry guns. Let them see their fears are unfounded. That was once the case and hopefully will once again be that case. When enough people open carry and the public gets see to gun owners as normal rational law abiding citizens, the perception of all gun owners will improve thereby gaining support for SD carry of all kinds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picketeer

I believe open carry should be an option for all licensed gun owners regardless of what state they reside in!

My guess is that you are advocating 2 A rights but unfamiliar with the laws regarding OC. In this case what appears to be a pro 2A stance worthy of support in fact it is anti 2A as it promotes more registration license or certification where none previously existed. Most states that permit open carry do not require a license to open carry. Or are you intending to say that Open Carry should have the same licensing registration certification requirements that Concealed Carry has?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby45

My primary goal when I’m out and about (besides whatever I went out and about to do) is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the potential pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause, and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teaming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry. Back in the 7-11, if he sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed behind him in the parking lot, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make any sense that they would be.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while like in some Charles Bronson movie is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you may forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting as criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. There are no Robins in the hood trying to help the poor by stealing from the rich. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to your self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. We give much more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. The combination of the two makes the criminal’s job that much more risky, that much more dangerous, and that much more uncertain.

Glad JD opted to move this post. IMO it is one of the most well thought out, articulate and insightful expressions of why someone open carrys. A perfectly rational fact based explanation of why you choose to open carry. I still do not think it will ever be my primary method of carry though I am grateful that it is an option. One issue that you did not touch on is negative encounters with LEO as a consequence of open carry. As I have had that happen I know it does so does have a bearing on how I opt to carry. Though I also see the potential for open carrying to be a tool to educate both LEO and the general public. As you said ambassadors for SD carry. That requires the proper mindset and I often do not have the time or patience to deal with less than civil encounters my hat is off to those that do.

TX Husker Fan · July 7th, 2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker

There is a movement in this country involving open carry. Most of it is based on publically exercising 2A Rights and political activism. Unfavorable LEO encounters and upset citizens seem to be a frequent occurence with the OC crowd. Most of these folks also get upset if you mention concealment as possibly a better way of carrying.

Although legal in most locales... what do you think? I prefer conceal carry and have mixed feelings about open carry. 2A rights, etc. aside.... I'd like to hear from you all...especially LEO's that have to deal with this issue on the street.

Thanks for your feedback.

I think you'd have a hard time bringing it back to an open carry policy in most places. As far as I know only two states allow open carry, Vermont(who would guess in middle of extremist liberals), and Alaksa.

ccw9mm · July 7th, 2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TX Husker Fan

As far as I know only two states allow open carry, Vermont ... and Alaksa.

OC is legal in a lot of places. Oregon's on that list.

Cody · July 7th, 2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccw9mm

OC is legal in a lot of places. Oregon's on that list.

Add Washington State to the list also...

UtahRSO · July 7th, 2008, 04:07 AM

Tubby45, thank you for the great analysis. I've saved it to a file on my computer. I've never read a better defense of open carry.

I live in Utah, and open carry (unloaded--meaning nothing in the firing chamber and two actions needed to fire the gun) is legal. With a Concealed Firearms Permit, concealed or open carry (loaded either way) is legal. I carry concealed more than openly, but I don't have to worry about printing or having my gun show, because either way is legal. And I'm glad for that.

The articles AzQkr posted for us are biased and mean beyond belief. I was one who was at the West Valley City Council to support Travis. We did not "storm" the council meeting, the mayor and council members were not "cowed." The WVCPD officer DID go way overboard, and no one there, citizens, mayor, council, or the asst. police chief, denied that.

The meeting was peaceful, and didn't seem confrontational at all, at least to those of us there (the newspaper article to the contrary). The purpose of going to the meeting was not to rail at anyone, but (as Travis said) to ask that WVCPD be more informed about the legality of open carry.

Actually, by telling Travis it should be referred to WVCPD standards review board, the mayor and council were telling him to make a bigger issue about it than he wanted to do. As he said to the news media later, his purpose was not to escalate the situation. Besides, there's no doubt the review board was well aware of the situation--maybe unofficially, but they surely knew.

And I was also one at the Sweet Tomatoes restaurant where the L.A. Times reporter interviewed people (and I was quoted in the full article). We acted no differently there than we do at any of our get-togethers (where there are no reporters). It's just dads and moms with their kids and babies, people from all walks of life. By the way, the managment at Sweet Tomatoes were VERY happy we were there, and seemed hopeful we would come there again.

Quoting Steve Gunn about anything concerning firearms is a joke. Just like the Brady Bunch, he won't be happy until everyone is defenseless, whether they carry openly or not. And (again) by the way, the quote from Travis White is not at all what he said.

I'm sure there are those who open carry to get attention, but that's not my purpose. And surely my wife doesn't open carry to prove her "manhood." Circumstances, weather, place, are factors whether I carry concealed or openly. It's a decision I'm glad I can make.

jahwarrior72 · July 7th, 2008, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TX Husker Fan

As far as I know only two states allow open carry, Vermont(who would guess in middle of extremist liberals), and Alaksa.

open carry is legal in quite a few states, actually, PA being among them. i know many in texas are petitioning to OC as well...i wish them luck.

July 3rd, 2008, 11:00 PM	#91
Bark'n VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,619	I don't have a problem with OC. It's not for me, as I like having the tactical advantage I believe concealed carry affords me. If I lived in a state where OC was legal and accepted, I would still carry concealed. I also wouldn't freak out or feel uncomfortable by seeing people OC. __________________ -Bark'n Semper Fi "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, will prey on those of us who without one, would surely perish."

July 3rd, 2008, 11:06 PM	#92
Ridgeline Distinguished Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,239	I would vote to allow it, even tho I would never need to CO, unless while hunting maybe. Why tip your hand to a potential BG, doesn't make any sense to me, but it would solve the printing problem. __________________ "Eternity is Too Long to be Wrong" Texas CHL Instructor & Holder Life Member NRA Member TSRA

July 4th, 2008, 04:17 PM	#94
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,378	Here's two articles on open carry in recent news: My 20-month-old nephew loves Elmo and Dora. He also has started making explosion and gunfire noises. I get the inevitability of little boys' fascination with guns. What I can't figure out are the men and sometimes women who don't grow out of the gun-crazy stage of childhood, who need to have a handgun on their hips at all times, who need their neighbors to notice. Ten of them stormed the West Valley City Council meeting last week to back up Travis Deveraux, a 36-year-old credit card company worker, who was detained by police in December while exercising with his Smith & Wesson. "I don't blame them for being a little bit extra careful," Deveraux said. "But there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful." I thought there was no such thing as "too careful" - especially with a gun. But the OpenCarry crowd's literal interpretation of the "right to bear arms" and self-appointment as our "well-regulated militia" undercuts careful law enforcement, membership in a civil society and even reason. It's in the Constitution, their thinking goes. They are "peaceably going about their business while armed," standing on the watchtower, the last line of defense against government tyranny and crazed criminals. We should thank them. I understand the thrill of firing a Glock (I've done it), the euphoria of hitting the center of a target (and that, too), generations of family deer-hunting weekends and the legitimate self-preservation instincts of Utah's elected concealed weapon carriers. But the Open Carry movement is a mystery to me. What kind of psychology - overcompensation, paranoia, antisocial personality - is behind that thinking? Steven Gunn, an attorney and board member of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah, believes it's pure ego. "We have inconsiderate boors walking around on the street carrying firearms openly," says Gunn. "I don't think they are truly afraid for their safety. Most of them are trying to make a statement about the Second Amendment." Anthropologist Charles Springwood says open carriers are trying to "naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood." OpenCarry.org (OCDO), run by two Virginia gun lovers, claims 4,000 members nationwide. According to the Legal Community Against Violence in San Francisco, just seven states prohibit packing in public and eight restrict carrying handguns openly without a permit. Utah's Open Carry activists put on a show for the Los Angeles Times a few weeks ago, trying to appear warm and fuzzy, shopping at Costco, just like you and me - but with their handguns flapping in the breeze. They meet once a month at restaurants like Denny's and Sweet Tomatoes to socialize. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it,' " Kevin Jensen told the Times reporter. But that's just what the showdown in West Valley City was about. The cowed mayor and City Council members referred the case to the officers' professional standards review board. Police are struggling to strike a balance between gun owners' rights and those of the rest of us. "There has to be some common sense on their part, too; they have to take into consideration the concern that they cause other citizens," says Layton Police Chief Terry Keefe. "I do not walk around when I'm off-duty with a weapon displayed." Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank would rather gun owners get concealed weapon permits than carry openly. "In light of Trolley Square, mall shootings, school shootings, anyone walking around with a gun potentially creates a lot of phone calls for us," Burbank says. "How do you expect an officer to deal with that - other than to point a gun at them and go through the process [of elimination]? There's no other way to make that determination safely without putting officers at risk." Utah lawmakers set up this stalemate when they wrote the state's anything-goes concealed weapon law. They deliberately left open a loophole for those who carry their guns out in the open. Under Utah law, open carriers must be 18 years old and keep their bullets out of the chamber. That's it. No training, no background check required. "Second Amendment questions aside," says Springwood, a professor at Illinois Wesleyan University, "the real debate seems to me a cultural and social one: Do we want a society in which it is an unconscious emblem of everyday life that folks move about with 'portable killing machines' strapped to their bodies?" Legislators already have made that decision for us; we're living in the modern heart of the wild, wild West. _______________________________________________ and this one from the Los Angeles Times: Those who wear their guns in full sight are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm a common accessory. By Nicholas Riccardi, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer June 7, 2008 PROVO, UTAH -- For years, Kevin Jensen carried a pistol everywhere he went, tucked in a shoulder holster beneath his clothes. In hot weather the holster was almost unbearable. Pressed against Jensen's skin, the firearm was heavy and uncomfortable. Hiding the weapon made him feel like a criminal. FOR THE RECORD: Gun laws: An article in Saturday's Section A about people who openly carry handguns said the practice was permissible in California only if the firearm was not loaded. In cities within the state, publicly displayed guns must not be loaded. In unincorporated areas, loaded guns can be carried openly unless a local ordinance prohibits it. — Then one evening he stumbled across a site that urged gun owners to do something revolutionary: Carry your gun openly for the world to see as you go about your business. In most states there's no law against that. Jensen thought about it and decided to give it a try. A couple of days later, his gun was visible, hanging from a black holster strapped around his hip as he walked into a Costco. His heart raced as he ordered a Polish dog at the counter. No one called the police. No one stopped him. Now Jensen carries his Glock 23 openly into his bank, restaurants and shopping centers. He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally. He and his wife, Clachelle, drop off their 5-year-old daughter at elementary school with pistols hanging from their hip holsters, and have never received a complaint or a wary look. Jensen said he tries not to flaunt his gun. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it,' " he said. But he and others who publicly display their guns have a common purpose. The Jensens are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm as common an accessory as an iPod. Called "open carry" by its supporters, the movement has attracted grandparents, graduate students and lifelong gun enthusiasts like the Jensens. "What we're trying to say is, 'Hey, we're normal people who carry guns,' " said Travis Deveraux, 36, of West Valley, a Salt Lake City suburb. Deveraux works for a credit card company and sometimes walks around town wearing a cowboy hat and packing a pistol in plain sight. "We want the public to understand it's not just cops who can carry guns." Police acknowledge the practice is legal, but some say it makes their lives tougher. Police Chief John Greiner recalled that last year in Ogden, Utah, a man was openly carrying a shotgun on the street. When officers pulled up to ask him about the gun, he started firing. Police killed the man. Greiner tells the story as a lesson for gun owners. "We've changed over the last 200 years from the days of the wild, wild West," Greiner said. "Most people don't openly carry. . . . If [people] truly want to open carry, they ought to expect they'll be challenged more until people become comfortable with it." Jensen and others argue that police shouldn't judge the gun, but rather the actions of the person carrying it. Jensen, 28, isn't opposed to attention, however. It's part of the reason he brought his gun out in the open. "At first, [open carry] was a little novelty," he said. "Then I realized the chances of me educating someone are bigger than ever using it [the gun] in self-defense. If it's in my pants or under my shirt I'm probably not going to do anything with it." As Clachelle pushed the shopping cart holding their two young children during a recent trip to Costco, her husband admired the new holster wrapped around her waist. "I like the look of that low-rise gun belt," he said. The Jensens' pistols were snapped into holsters attached to black belts that hug their waists. Guns are a fact of life in their household. Their 5-year-old daughter, Sierra, has a child-sized .22 rifle she handles only in her parents' presence. Clachelle is the daughter of a Central California police chief and began shooting when she was about Sierra's age. She would take her parents' gun when she went out and hide it in her purse because the firearm made her feel safer. "I love 'em," Clachelle said. "I wouldn't ever be without them." Kevin Jensen's first encounter with guns came when he was 11: His grandfather died and left him a 16-gauge shotgun. The gun stayed locked away but fascinated Jensen through his teen years. He convinced his older brother to take him shooting in the countryside near their home in a small town south of Salt Lake City. "I immediately fell in love with it," said Jensen, a lean man with close-cropped hair and a precise gait that is a reminder of his five years in the Army Reserve. "I like things that go boom." Jensen kept as many as 10 guns in the couple's 1930s-style bungalow in Santaquin, 21 miles southwest of Provo. In January 2005, he decided to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, mainly for self-defense. "I'm not going to hide in the corner of a school and mall and wait for the shooting to stop," he said. When Jensen bought a Glock and the dealer threw in an external hip holster, he began researching the idea of carrying the gun in public and came upon OCDO. Its website, run by two Virginia gun enthusiasts, claims 4,000 members nationwide. It summarizes the varying laws in each state that permit or forbid the practice. People everywhere have the right to prohibit weapons from their property, and firearms are often banned in government buildings such as courthouses. According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely ban the practice, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns. Utah has no law prohibiting anyone from carrying a gun in public, as long as it is two steps from firing -- for example, the weapon may have a loaded clip but must be uncocked, with no bullets in the chamber. Those who obtain a concealed-weapons permit in Utah don't have that restriction. Also, youths under 18 can carry a gun openly with parental approval and a supervising adult in close proximity. Most of the time people don't notice Jensen's gun. That's not uncommon, said John Pierce, a law student and computer consultant in Virginia who is a co-founder of OpenCarry.org. "People are carrying pagers, BlackBerrys, cellphones," Pierce said. "They see a black lump on your belt and their eyes slide off." Sometimes the reactions are comical. Bill White, a 24-year-old graduate student in ancient languages at the University of Colorado at Boulder, wears his Colt pistol out in the open when he goes to his local Starbucks. Earlier this month a tourist from California spotted him and snapped a photo on his cellphone. "He said it would prove he was in the Wild West," White recalled. But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood. An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him. Deveraux saw the incident as not giving ground on his rights. "I'm proud that happened," he said. Cases like this are talked about during regular gatherings of those who favor open carry. At a Sweet Tomatoes restaurant in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy, more than 40 civilians with guns strapped to their hips took over a corner of the restaurant, eating pasta and boisterously sharing stories. Hassles with law enforcement were a badge of honor for some. Travis White, 19, who has ear and chin piercings, congratulated Brandon Trask, 21, on carrying openly for the first time that night. "Just wait until you get confronted by a cop," White said. "It'll make you feel brave." Having pistols strapped around their waists made Shel Anderson, 67, and his wife, Kaye, 63, feel more secure. Longtime recreational shooters, they began to carry their pistols openly after a spate of home-invasion robberies in their neighborhood. The firearms can serve as a warning to predators, they said. "I decided I want to have as much of an advantage as I can have in this day and age," said Kaye Anderson, a retired schoolteacher. Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster. The gangly graphics designer grew up in a home without guns and didn't think of owning one until he started dating a woman -- now his wife -- who lived in a rough neighborhood. One night last year, a youth had his head beaten in with a pipe outside her bedroom window. The next day, Thompson got a concealed-weapons permit. Thompson found out about open carry last month while reading gun sites. He's become a convert. He likes the statement it makes. Glancing around the restaurant, as armed families like the Jensens dined with men in cowboy hats and professionals like himself, Thompson smiled. "I love this," he said. "I want people to be aware that crazy people are not the only ones with guns. Normal people carry them." The Jensens' daughter, Sierra, and newborn son, Tyler, began to get restless, so the couple bundled up the children and pulled the manager of the restaurant aside to thank her for hosting them. A patron appeared at Jensen's side and began to berate him. "What you guys are doing here is completely unacceptable," he said. "There are children here." Jensen said that everyone in the restaurant had a legal right to carry. The man didn't back down and the Jensens left. Days later, Jensen was still thinking about the reaction and the man's belief that guns are unsafe. "People can feel that way and it doesn't bother me," he said. "If they have irrational fears, that's fine." _______________________________________________ Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

July 7th, 2008, 04:07 AM	#99
UtahRSO Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: near SLC, Utah Posts: 84	Tubby45, thank you for the great analysis. I've saved it to a file on my computer. I've never read a better defense of open carry. I live in Utah, and open carry (unloaded--meaning nothing in the firing chamber and two actions needed to fire the gun) is legal. With a Concealed Firearms Permit, concealed or open carry (loaded either way) is legal. I carry concealed more than openly, but I don't have to worry about printing or having my gun show, because either way is legal. And I'm glad for that. The articles AzQkr posted for us are biased and mean beyond belief. I was one who was at the West Valley City Council to support Travis. We did not "storm" the council meeting, the mayor and council members were not "cowed." The WVCPD officer DID go way overboard, and no one there, citizens, mayor, council, or the asst. police chief, denied that. The meeting was peaceful, and didn't seem confrontational at all, at least to those of us there (the newspaper article to the contrary). The purpose of going to the meeting was not to rail at anyone, but (as Travis said) to ask that WVCPD be more informed about the legality of open carry. Actually, by telling Travis it should be referred to WVCPD standards review board, the mayor and council were telling him to make a bigger issue about it than he wanted to do. As he said to the news media later, his purpose was not to escalate the situation. Besides, there's no doubt the review board was well aware of the situation--maybe unofficially, but they surely knew. And I was also one at the Sweet Tomatoes restaurant where the L.A. Times reporter interviewed people (and I was quoted in the full article). We acted no differently there than we do at any of our get-togethers (where there are no reporters). It's just dads and moms with their kids and babies, people from all walks of life. By the way, the managment at Sweet Tomatoes were VERY happy we were there, and seemed hopeful we would come there again. Quoting Steve Gunn about anything concerning firearms is a joke. Just like the Brady Bunch, he won't be happy until everyone is defenseless, whether they carry openly or not. And (again) by the way, the quote from Travis White is not at all what he said. I'm sure there are those who open carry to get attention, but that's not my purpose. And surely my wife doesn't open carry to prove her "manhood." Circumstances, weather, place, are factors whether I carry concealed or openly. It's a decision I'm glad I can make. __________________ "None who have always been free can understand the terrible fascinating power of the hope of freedom to those who are not free."

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July 4th, 2008, 12:00 PM	#93
bmcgilvray Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Texas Posts: 1,119	Our nation should be free to carry openly. I'm uninterested in practicing open carry socially. I particularly don't want anyone to know.