luvmyglock

Great post Lima! You should talk with my wife...you guys have very similar thought processes. She is armriley on DC.

TinkerinWstuff,
Good post, and certainly a point to be discussed. I think, though, that as much as carrying the weapon, the woman has to look confident, or that she can handle the weapon. If she looks uncomfortable, or unaware of her surroundings, she may become a bigger target (BG thinks he can get his victim AND a gun out of the deal). Sometimes the look of a confident woman can be scarier than the gun!

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LongRider

That is kind of my impression, but I rather not assume as I have been known to be wr, wro... wron.... mistaken before so thought if anyone knew of it happening, it would be helpful in making an informed decision. As JD pointed out regardless if it has happened or not, likely or not the possibility does need to be taken into consideration no doubt. What I hate to see happen is if we do the same kind of thing the Brady bunch does and take something that could happen or is possible and present it as a fact as something that does happen without evidence to verify it. Especially when we are talking about eliminating a method of carry. As that plays right into their hands.

Thanks that is exactly where I did not want to go. I agree with your next post that just because we can not find evidence of it happening does not mean it can't or won't. There are inherent risks in any method of carry and need to take those into consideration but I do not want to avoid a method of carry simply because an unlikely event may occur. If I did than I would not carry at all based on all the possible things the Brady bunch claims could go wrong. Rather I want to be aware of the risks and act accordingly.

Thanks, I think it is a valid theory and one of the reasons I am asking. It does seem that if thugs are prone to see and act against those that OC there would be some evidence of it in the media some where as hostile as they are to guns especially OC.


Excellent Grady exactly what I was looking for verifiable incidents. Though both were LEO as you said and the first does look like a hit on that specific officer. Generally speaking I do not think officer shootings are part of the open carry vs concealed carry issue. But the second I think is may have a more valid connection but he question does kind of remain was he shooting at the LEO because he was a LEO. So the perp knew to look for him, but as a civilian may have been over looked based on Lima's OC theory? That is why I am asking if we can find any evidence of our OC concerns actually happening.

I kind of get that and don't but my response really is another topic. What I am looking for is evidence that it does or has happened. So far based on this thread apparently not

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luvmyglock

A GREAT resource for all of your Open Carry questions is OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost!. They have all the information that you would want over there, as well as state-specific forums. I am luvmyglock over there as well. We just really aren't geared towards open carry as much over here. Good luck!

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EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN FAIL TO ACT.

grady

Yes, the LEO's are not a perfect example of someone OCing. And it was a surprise attack on the first LEO. According to what I read and heard, the first LEO knew the shooter on a first-name basis. They had interacted before, and the officer was caught off-guard by the shooter.

To perhaps answer some of your questions, I'll give more detail. The shooter had been in many city hall meetings, and had at one point been thrown out due to his conduct. So he likely knew an officer would be in the meeting. He apparently knew many police by sight and name due to a long-running dispute with the city. According to media reports, he had been loud and boisterous before, but not violent.

In this instance, had he known anyone else carried a weapon, my guess is he would have gone after them also. But that is only conjecture: no weapons other than LEO's were allowed in the meeting. Another point of conjecture is that if such a shooter was not familiar with those attending the meeting, someone OCing probably would not have been targeted first because the weapon might have been out of sight as they sat behind desks, tables, etc.

I realize this isn't a good example of what you are looking for, but I thought it might have some common points. As far as a non-LEO being targeted because of OC, I haven't heard of it.

Janq

Agreed with B52 and Lima, by my own life experiences and past actions too.

Nullify the person of highest potential resistance as quickly and succinctly as possible, and on the streets preferably with extreme prejudice. You do the alpha ugly and all the rest will fall in line. It works and is basic in nature.

I don't support open carry for myself, even where lawful, because life is a poker game and rarely ever is it beneficial to show ones hand.

- 'The Gambler'

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LongRider

I respect your choice but do you have any personal experience or links to news stories? As some have pointed out there is reason to believe that many of the concerns against open carry are a simple myth. Much like the kind that the Brady Bunch creates. I am unsure so asked for evidence that the open carry concerns are based on something other than supposition. So far no one except Grady found any and those were LEO. That said as I said just because it has not happened does not mean it can't than again Tubby-45 points out it may be as likely as a satellite falling out of the sky and hit me on the head. Which why the topic is about evidence of any of the open carry concerns actually happening.

Tubby while appearing rather verbose your post is actually one of if not THE most succinct well thought out arguments for open carry I have ever read but it does almost the opposite of what I asked for which is if anyone has credible evidence against open carry like guns being taken or being the first shot etc. I'd love for your post to be another thread to hear why people open carry.

It appears so far that the only credible evidence against open carry is the potential for negative encounters with LEO and the general public who may be unfamiliar with the law. I am still looking for evidence that the other concerns are anything other than urban myth.

__________________
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

Glock Arms Iranian Terrorists to Kill US soldiers

Tubby45

There is once instance last year that was hashed out on the forums where a guy that open carried got it taken away. The situation seemed like he was in condition white with a gun. Not good juju. Other than that I haven't heard anything or seen anything.

I think my previous post got deleted and I crossed the line of open carry discussion. It was risky that I posted what I did, but I thought the benefits would outweigh the risk. I don't want to "poke the bear" and make a mod's day more difficult, so I will keep my distance from that issue.

The key word is exactly the issue: potential. Some simply don't want to be bothered with the "extra responsibility" (if you will) of openly carrying a firearm. If one is stopped while carrying, they don't want it to interfere with their day's itinerary.

A lot of discussion regarding pro/con of openly carrying is about the potential for something, same as carrying concealed, keeping a spare tire and cell phone, or having proper insurance. We do it for protection in the rare instance we might need it; we choose our method on a number of factors. I don't care how one carries a gun, so long as they are armed.

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Rob72

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/aprl961.txt

FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin - March 2006 Issue

Here's a start. Pinizotto, Miller and Davis actually have 3 reports regarding assaults/killing of LE, between 2000 and 2008 (IIRC.) If you call the FBI Publications office, and request the reports, using the authors names, they will send you free copies.

It has been argued that LE scenarios do not apply to CC. This is not true, as violent encounters involve the same assessment, selection and initiation across the board.

Here's the deal- OC we become as visible as (and therefore environmentally the equivalent of) LE. Our ROE are somewhat "looser" as we do not have to jump through all the hoops in "appropriate escalation of force." In that respect OC civvies are somewhat more of a risk- unless, of course, we are clearly incompetent in the handling and application and use of force. I would submit that more than a handful of licensed folks might fall into that category.

Rob99VMI04

IIRC
I think last year here in Chantilly, VA a man was walking his dog OC'ing when a guy came up from behind him took his gun and robbed him.

OC'ing I used to be impartial now I don't like it.

Action beats reaction. Most people carrying open have no idea how to respond to a gun Grab by a Bad guy. Most people I see open carrying have very cheap holsters, that are open top or could easily be broken, (the old FOBUS) comes to mind. IMHO the aggregate of people who open carry don't understand the disadvantages vs. the advantages of CCW vs. Open.

The Open carry argument has always been its not against the law. Thats fine but don't get shocked when your hassled face down and inconvienced. Remember an officer in VA has every right to secure your gun, that means taking it from you for his own personal security. If you show everybody your gun. Some idiot may call the cops, the cops may show up, and you maybe hassled, inconvienced, etc....

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Janq

LR,

I had stated to start; "by my own life experiences and past actions too".

Rob I too saw that story but I'd thought the guy was in Sterling, VA (next town over...basically the same difference) and yeah the guy was out in the early AM 'walking' as I recall he stating when he was run up on by two BGs as he was open carrying. They disarmed him, smashed him upside the head with his own firearm, and left him laid out in the street with a head wound.
They took him blind side as he reported.

As to empirical evidence LR it will be difficult to find as much toward civilians considering the vast majority of America does not allow open carry. Even states like VA that does up until very recently would result in major problems with police if you were caught doing so even as it was technically legal.
There is though lots and lots of such evidence throughout history toward police and security guards.

Also on the street as was stated by Lima and B52, and again by my own direct experiences and past actions too I very much agree with their statements of first take out the big dog who shows his teeth. This happens everywhere everyday and not just toward persons who are armed with tools. Same goes toward alpha males by personality type and/or physical stature as well as perceived overall pack dynamic too. This is basic animal behavior.

- Janq

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post