LongRider

Regarding some other threads. I wonder how many of our concerns about open carry really happen. Does the person open carrying often get shot first? Do they often get their gun taken away? Anyone have links to stories or personal accounts where these things happen. Or are these just possibilities that might happen some day to some one? I don't know so I am asking.

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AZ Husker

I've never heard of that situation. Urban myth? Mall Commando legends?

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B52

I open carried today while shooting with friends in the Arizona desert. We wanted to make sure the illegals knew we were not to be screwed with. But I rember in my frat...Kappa Alpha... (college) days we always beat the biggest guy up first, in a bar fight. I am not condoning what we did, but most do things we regret when we were young. That is the reason I CCW in town, I don't need the unwanted attention or want to be the first taken out.

JD

Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't have anything relevant to the topic, don't post it.

If this turns into the ever dramatic OC vs CC debate, well I think you all know what happens.

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Code of Virginia: § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

VA Concealed Handgun Permit Info: From the VSP
VA Reciprocity: From the VSP

limatunes

I have a theory, and while it's just Lima Theory therefore subject to much error, it is still a theory in need of being proven or disproven.

My theory is that, like B52's fraternity beating up the biggest guy in a bar fight, or your bank robbers going in and taking out the security guards first, etc, it has more to do with "crowd control" than anything else.

Part of pulling off a successful coup, whether it be to get respect, fear or money is to convince the crowd that you are a force best not reckoned with. How do you do this? Well, you go after the person/persons that people may look to for protection and/or guidance. With that person/persons gone you have instant fear and therefore crowd control.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the guy with the gun is going to automatically "get it" mostly because he's not expected to be there.

For instance, I'm planning a bank robbery (hypothetically, of course) and I know there is security (armed or not, it doesn't matter). The first order of business is to take them out and gain the fear and control of the crowd. Second order of business is to get the money and get out of there.

People in high stress situations (yes, even criminals) experience tunnel vision. They have an objective, they go for that objective and they sometimes don't even see things they aren't worried about.

Okay, so, I'm robbing a bank. My first objective is the security. I run in screaming for everyone to get down on the ground while I run for the guys with the white shirts and pretty belts. I knock them out and look around.. No one is standing. They are scared crapless and on the ground. Good. I have crowd control. Onto objective #2, the money. I run to the manger and/or tellers and start my withdrawal.

I'm not looking for weapons on the civilians in the bank because that would take too much precious time. Time I don't have to waste, and as I'm experiencing tunnel vision (very likely) there could very well be a guy open carrying right to my left who just happens to be on the floor cowering like everyone else and as long as he doesn't do anything to alert my attention (like get up) I might as well not even know he exists.

Now, let's step that down a little further to a simple convenience store robbery.

If you have watched any of those videos on YouTube, or anywhere else for that matter, and you watched the bad guys closely you can almost SEE their tunnel vision.

They come running in, go right to the counter, do their business and get out of there as quickly as possible.

Often, there are other customers standing around, in a daze, that it doesn't even seem the bad guy even SEES and it very well could be that they never do see them. The customers are just standing still, scared, not knowing what to do and hoping they don't get hurt and it's over before their brain even kicks in that there was something going on.

One of them could be EASILY open carrying a firearm and the bad guy could be none the wiser and therefore there is literally no threat to the open carrier.

Now, let's take it even a step further and talk about random killing like in a mall shooting scenario. These shootings are random and the shooter (from what I've read and seen) doesn't give a crap whether the person is young, old, black, white, security or civilian, armed or walking their dog. His objective is simple, kill as many as possible, and it doesn't make you any more of a target to be open carrying because EVERYONE is already an equal target and, again, he may not even see that you are armed. All he sees is a person, a target, someone to take out. You are just as good as the next victim and therefore you get an equal share in his lunacy, just like everyone else.

I have open carried quite a few times and it always amazes me how many people DON'T see that I'm armed. They can be standing in line right behind me and have absolutely no clue. Why should someone running into a store to rob it have any more awareness and ability to spot my firearm than the guy behind me in line? Just because they are committing a crime, does that make them superman and a weapons expert? Does that give them a sudden ability to home in on firearm? I don't think so.

Now, if I'm open carrying I'm not going to be an idiot, stand up, raise my hand and say, "Ahh, Mr. Burglar. I have a gun." I'm probably going to try to conceal the fact that I am armed, even if it's just turning my gun side away from the action to lower the chance that I am seen and targeted because, though unlikely, is certainly is a possibility and that possibility should not be ignored by people who do decide to open carry.

And even if they don't kill me they can certainly demand my disarmament and try to take my beautiful gun that I don't want to give up. So, in the interest of self preservation, I'm certainly not going to make my status as a carrier any more well known.

Now, to address the, "You've got a gun, why don't you do something?" problem.....

Again, unlikely. First, that would take the civilians around you actually seeing you have a gun, and as I've said, I've open carried before and the vast majority don't even see it.

If they do and that question is voiced, one, was it spoken loud enough for the bad guy to hear it? Two, are they going to press the issue and make themselves a target by drawing unnecessary attention their way? And three, can you knock them out and shut them up? (I'm really kidding on that last point! )

Seriously though, the question might come up but a simple, "SHHHHH!" might be all that's needed to get them to put their heads back down and shut up. They don't want to draw any more attention to themselves than you want to draw attention to yourself. If they panic and start screaming, well, then that's a whole other ball game to play and you have fun with that.

So, in my theory's conclusion, I'm going to say that whether you are a bad guy or a good guy you are still human... right?

I've been around guns all my life, carrying guns for years and working with guns for the last two years. I help people find holsters to conceal, I help people find guns, I write articles on concealing guns and body types and best ways to conceal. I LOOK for guns when I'm out in public and guess what.. I'VE EVEN MISSED A FEW.

I'll be sitting next to a guy for ten minutes, he'll get up to leave and JD will say, "That was a nice Sig he was carrying."

I'll feel like a complete idiot because I completely missed it. I could tell you his approximate hight, weight, skin and hair color and a brief description of his clothes, but somehow I missed the open carried gun, either because of the angle or my eyes just skipped over it.

I'm not perfect and neither are you and neither are cops and neither are FBI agents and neither are TSA guys or anyone else for that matter, and that means the bad guys too.

Chances are DARNED HIGH that they are going to skip, not just your gun, but your ENTIRE PERSON as long as you aren't their objective or in the way of that objective.

But that's all Lima theory.

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Limatunes' Range Diaries

On a shooting hiatus until our son is born...

JD

For the most part, it's supposition, if it has happened, (regarding civilians being targeted) I haven't heard about it. As I stated in another post regarding being targeted as a result of OC.

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Code of Virginia: § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

VA Concealed Handgun Permit Info: From the VSP
VA Reciprocity: From the VSP

grady

Two instances during the same shooting. Granted, both victims were police officers, but the principle is the same: the shooter knew the officers were armed, and he shot them first before he started shooting unarmed people.

1. The shooter approaches a police officer. They know each other because the shooter has had issues with the city before. The shooter kills the officer who is open carrying. Other news accounts state the shooter took the officer's gun and may have used it in the shootings that followed.

2. The shooter enters a city hall meeting and immediately shoots and kills a second police officer, who was the only armed person in the room.

The shooter then proceeds to shoot and kill others until other officers arrive and kill the shooter.

Maybe not exact examples of what you are looking for since they were police officers open carrying, but some of the principle is the same.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/us...=1&oref=slogin

The following is only a short excerpt from a longer article:

B52

Great points Lima!

Rob72

It really boils down how you carry your weapon vs. how you carry your weapon. There are at least three studies I know of regarding on offender selection processes when choosing to assault an officer. OC puts us in the same category as LE, vis-a-vis a visible threat to BGs. Of course, we don't have Motorola, and 50 of our best buddies won't be cruising for the BG if we get assaulted, either...

If we are not situationally aware, if we look like food, if we tuck our heads in the cabin of the car as we strap a kid in a carseat and leave a hip-n-gun hanging in the open... it's an invitation. You become a high value target, if the BG feels he/she can control you.

tinkerinWstuff

I've told my girlfriend that OC wouldn't be the worst option for her while she's out hiking or walking by herself. Yesterday, we were riding our horses in a local state park (OC is legal in state parks where we are) and I saw another girl OC a small revolver. My girlfriend didn't notice until I asked the other girl if it was a .38. I was CC this time but have OC'd there a few times. Anyway, to my point; If I was a bad guy sizing up ladies to take advantage of in a park (which seems to happen often enough), I'd say most perps are going to look at her as too much trouble and move on to an easier target. Obviously, we can debate all day long if the perp would go straight for the gun, but I think most criminals in this situation would be looking for targets of easy opportunity.