Focus on the willingness to kill? - Page 5

FN1910 · July 1st, 2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwblanco

Being that I am a rural volunteer firefighter there is some truth in what you say. However, I have never known of any in my area being involved in starting a fire, and most have fought them enough to get it out of their system, and they dread the thought of having to get up at night, and then to linger for long times to assure the final put out -- and then to go to their day time job the following day.

What you say is not much different from the young cop or young soldier who secretly craves an engagement, but then his good sense prevails, and although he will do his duty, in the final analysis he had just as soon avoid being in harm's way so that he can live to see another day.

I don't want to make it sound like that is a common thing but it has been know to happen but rarely, usually in large cities. My brother was a volunteer fire fighter and he couldn't wait to get to his first fire. As you say after a while the thrill goes away and reality sets in.

Young cop, young soldier, young anything has a different outlook on life than the older ones. Fortunately for most people reality wins out but sometimes it doesn't. Everyone secretly wants to be Dirty Harry but for the most part we are all closer to Barney Fife.

Natureboypkr · July 1st, 2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ram Rod

Kill or be killed? If the headlines aren't enough, the stories, the interview with the perps, the thoughtless killings at the hand of criminals and their descriptions of such. Backed into a corner, I can be just as ruthless and without remorse. If that in any way scares you, or makes you feel uncomfortable that I walk the streets, then I am truly apologetic. Maybe my years in the Marine Corp prepare me more than the average person considering self preservation. Someone willing and attempting to kill me? That scenario demands an equal and opposite reaction with little room for doubt. I'm willing and able and I'll stop the threat to my life no matter the outcome or consequences. I live day in and day out with that notion and I've never second guessed it. Firearms have their limitations as do people. Modern medicine is nothing short of magical in some instances. Let the chips fall where they may.

I'm with Ram Rod on this one. It's either you going home to your loved ones, or them identifying your body.

gwhall57 · July 2nd, 2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro 40

And how do bullets "stop" people? By maiming and killing them, that's how. A head shot is probably one of the most effective shots you can make to "stop" someone. If the situation is so grave that you have to pull your pistol, you had better make the most effective shot you can, and stop worrying about politically correct BS. If you carry a gun, you carry an instrument of death. You are indeed potentially in the "killing business," whether you realize it or not.

I still believe that there is a difference between shooting to stop an attack and intentionally shooting to kill. I don't think that difference is "politically correct BS"; it's what separates me from the psychopathic cold-blooded killers. While I do recognize that, in fact, I may kill someone while defending myself, I would never "double -tap" anyone. To me, I am in the "self-defense business", and not the "killing business".

Rob72 · July 2nd, 2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwhall57

it's what separates me from the psychopathic cold-blooded killers.

There aren't many of those out there, they end up in prison pretty quickly.

Folks, "COM" is the heart/aorta/mainstem bronchus nexus. It's a kill-shot. Telling oneself that it is anything else is feel-good self manipulation, and will return to bugger you from behind.

A BG will most likely not "stand still and take it, "ergo, he may not die. Kudos for him. Equally, that means you aren't getting enough lead downrange fast enough to stop him. Ergo, you are failing. Some will run away, some will not. Sucks to be wrong in an all-or-nothing exchange.

What one tells one's lawyer, what one says to the press is one thing. One's mindset really should be a tad more "visceral." If it's more significant than taking out the trash, or putting down a rabid animal, don't carry a trigger to pull. If you expend energy debating the propriety of your actions after the fact, you certainly won't be able to sustain anything remotely similar to life before the fact.

edr9x23super · July 2nd, 2008, 02:16 PM

+1 on RamRods post. If things get bad enough for the .45 to come out, my medicine is two in the heart, one in the head, mozambique style.

that way I don't have to worry about him getting up or suing me, because he won't be with us anymore.

Natureboypkr · July 2nd, 2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edr9x23super

+1 on RamRods post. If things get bad enough for the .45 to come out, my medicine is two in the heart, one in the head, mozambique style.

that way I don't have to worry about him getting up or suing me, because he won't be with us anymore.

Enough Said

gwhall57 · July 2nd, 2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob72

Folks, "COM" is the heart/aorta/mainstem bronchus nexus. It's a kill-shot. Telling oneself that it is anything else is feel-good self manipulation, and will return to bugger you from behind.

A BG will most likely not "stand still and take it, "ergo, he may not die. Kudos for him. Equally, that means you aren't getting enough lead downrange fast enough to stop him. Ergo, you are failing. Some will run away, some will not. Sucks to be wrong in an all-or-nothing exchange.

What one tells one's lawyer, what one says to the press is one thing. One's mindset really should be a tad more "visceral." If it's more significant than taking out the trash, or putting down a rabid animal, don't carry a trigger to pull. If you expend energy debating the propriety of your actions after the fact, you certainly won't be able to sustain anything remotely similar to life before the fact.

I seem to have opened the proverbial can-'o-worms here. Sigghhh. Here's what I am trying to say (yet again)... If attacked, I will shoot to defend myself. I will use a gun. The bullets most likely will cause serious injury and/or death. I understand that I am probably going to have to use "deadly force" if the situation calls for it. This is no "feel good self-manipulation" - this is all about fighting for survival, and I intend to survive. I will keep shooting until the threat to my life stops. If it takes all 11 rounds ( I carry 10 + 1 "in the pipe"), then the BG gets shot 11 times. If the BG dies after the first or seconfd round, then I will stop shooting.

With that being said, I will not walk over to a BG lying on the ground and "double-tap" him in the head. I am all about self-defense; "executing" a wounded BG is not self-defense - it's called murder.

Do I expect the same consideration from the BG's and thugs? Heck no - they're all about killing people. That's the differenc between them and me (oh, yeah, there's also the fact that I'm a law-abiding citizen...). That's why I carry - I will not "go gentle into that good night"; I'm gonna rage like hell against the darkness, and those who have chosen to live their lives on the dark side, as long as I'm breathing. If I run out of bullets and the BG is still coming, then I pick up the nearest thing I can use as a club and keep swinging.

But I am not about killing just because the opportunity is there.
That is my point. That is what I have tried to say. I read about and hear people at the range talking about "2 COM and 1 to the head"; and it's the "1 to the head" that I have problems with.

Bark'n · July 2nd, 2008, 03:03 PM

Wow... very interesting thread. Some good points and some good thoughts on a philosophical topic.

I know I see things with a slightly jaded eye and with some measure of cynicism. It is occupationally acquired if that makes any sense.

When I say we, I refer to those of us who feel we are moral, law abiding, believe in the golden rule type of person in society who wishes nothing bad on people and hope nothing bad happens to us but have enough understanding of the real world to carry a gun to defend ourselves from evil.

Still, I feel it is kind of an abstract concept to most people or at least a lot of people.

I also feel a lot of the way we feel things should be in society is in direct conflict with reality.

I'll be blunt. Life is cheap! Means absolutely nothing to the predators who prey upon us. They could give a plug nickel for your feelings, your morality, your sense of right & wrong or your sense of fairness. They could care less about your family... that you have infant children or that you go to church. They can't be reasoned with and can't be trusted. They also don't want you to try and "understand" them. They truly could care less!

Those that can't wrap their head around that reality need not apply to be a member of my club.

I'm not trying to knock people down by saying that most people or at least a lot of good people feel and believe they "know" all this even though they have never been touched by violence. A lot of people think they know what a scary neighborhood is and what goes on there even though they've never walked in one at 2 am on a friday night during a full moon. I lot of people believe they know what death and dying is all about yet have never seen a dead person except for seeing a dead friend or relative laid out for viewing in a funeral home or maybe inside a hospital room.

A lot of folks get their idea of crime, the streets or violence from TV shows, movies, the local news or stories told by other people and then their imagination fills in the rest.

I carry a gun because bad things happen to good people. I carry a gun because death is permanent, it happens in the blink of an eye, and because to the predators out there, life is cheap.

I deal with death for a living. For 30 years I've seen it up close and personal. Touched it, smelled it, and had it ooze out of my hands. Seen so many murders it never occurred to me to try and count how many. People who begged me to help them and succumbed despite our best efforts.

Comforted and treated a 14 year old girl tag teamed and repeatedly raped, beat, abused and forced to dig her own grave at gunpoint, only to survive because it was interrupted because unrelated events scared the offenders off during the crime. It's one thing to hear a story or see something reported on the news and think, OMG, that is horrible, what is this world coming to. It's a whole other thing to be there, see it, smell the blood, sweat and semen, touch and dress the wounds and hear the whimpers and sobs. Carrying her out of the woods to the surreal sounds of the summer crickets and the radio traffic on the police and ambulance radios.

Grim and gruesome stuff no doubt. I carry a gun because I won't let that stuff happen to me or mine. I don't know why other people choose to carry their guns.

People ask me about carrying a gun for self defense, I don't sugar coat things. I don't get into the philosophical debate of shooting to wound or shooting to kill. I shoot to stop the immediate threat period. If they die, so be it! I see death all the time. I'm shooting to save my life not the bad guys. If they live... they are lucky to be alive because what they were doing was trying to take my life, otherwise I wouldn't be shooting at them.

Make no mistake... I won't hesitate or bat an eye to pull the trigger on some scumbag trying to kill me. If they die... I really don't think I will care one plug nickel. I see death all the time and the scumbags sure as hell don't care about my life. I'm not their priest and really don't care why they chose the wrong path in life.

I know that there are a lot of CCW holders who really have no more than an abstract concept about what it is to take a life and there are many who carry and still haven't really come to terms with whether they feel they could kill someone or not.

All I can say is, the sooner you come to terms with what is real and what are just abstract thoughts or wishes the better off you will be if the moment of truth does come to you. I can tell you, it won't be what you expect.

Carrying a gun isn't for everyone and yet I believe everyone has the right to do so if they are truly good men and women and not prohibited by being a felon or mental defect.

If anyone feels this post is inappropriate, I apologize. If I offended anyone, it was truly unintended!

Philosophical debate on concepts, reasons, methods have a place and help people cope, learn, grow and accept... but it has no place at 1 am in the dark parking lot of an off campus coffee house when a 230 pound parolee tries to drag a 22 year old woman into a dark alley at knife point.

Just my 2 cents... YMMV

AzQkr · July 2nd, 2008, 05:54 PM

Bark'n

Thats the streets, pure and simple. Succinct and to the point.

Brownie

Metro 40 · July 2nd, 2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwhall57

With that being said, I will not walk over to a BG lying on the ground and "double-tap" him in the head. I am all about self-defense; "executing" a wounded BG is not self-defense - it's called murder.

But I am not about killing just because the opportunity is there.
That is my point. That is what I have tried to say. I read about and hear people at the range talking about "2 COM and 1 to the head"; and it's the "1 to the head" that I have problems with.

You misunderstand, I think. The "2 COM + 1 to the head" is the Mozambique drill. Here's a brief history on it:

Mozambique Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea of putting 1 shot in the head is that pistol bullets are notoriously unreliable. If you put 2 shots COM and the bad guy keeps coming, then switching to a head shot (if possible) makes good sense. After all, if you are shooting, then the bad guy is trying to kill you, no? He needs "stopping" right now.

If he doesn't react to a couple of COM shots, he's probably either certifiably mental or higher than a kite on meth, coke, etc. A shot that destroys the heart still gives the bad guy 10-12 seconds to kill you. If he's feeling no pain, it makes no sense to keep pumping shots COM. Even if you get lucky and hit the spine and he hits the floor, he still has use of his arms. If he's shooting at you, you STILL haven't stopped him.

Even the head shot is not 100% reliable, but it is a heck of a lot more reliable than most COM shots. Most people shot in the head are stopped...and sometimes even if the bullet glances off the skull, the impact is enough to change his channel and at least buy you some time.

Nobody is talking about walking over to a bad guy laying on the ground an pumping a hollowpoint into his head after he's been taken out of the fight. Of course, that is murder. The Mozambique drill is a "failure to stop" drill. Expect your pistol to fail, and prepare for the worse. If you have reservations about shooting someone in the most effective part of the body to stop them from killing you, you need to rethink things, IMHO. If you absolutely won't shoot somone anywhere except COM in a life or death situation, you've already given the advantage to the scumbag.

You say you're not in the "killing business." If I ever have to shoot someone in the head (God forbid) to save my own life, and I'm asked why I did it, I'll tell them that I'm not in the "dying business." My wife and kids deserve my complete determination to overcome my attacker at all costs. The only fair fight is the one I win.

And thank you, Bark'n, for your EXCELLENT post!

You and I work the same place, even if we're miles apart.

July 2nd, 2008, 02:16 PM	#45
edr9x23super Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 922	+1 on RamRods post. If things get bad enough for the .45 to come out, my medicine is two in the heart, one in the head, mozambique style. that way I don't have to worry about him getting up or suing me, because he won't be with us anymore. __________________ "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

July 2nd, 2008, 03:03 PM	#48
Bark'n VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,619	Wow... very interesting thread. Some good points and some good thoughts on a philosophical topic. I know I see things with a slightly jaded eye and with some measure of cynicism. It is occupationally acquired if that makes any sense. When I say we, I refer to those of us who feel we are moral, law abiding, believe in the golden rule type of person in society who wishes nothing bad on people and hope nothing bad happens to us but have enough understanding of the real world to carry a gun to defend ourselves from evil. Still, I feel it is kind of an abstract concept to most people or at least a lot of people. I also feel a lot of the way we feel things should be in society is in direct conflict with reality. I'll be blunt. Life is cheap! Means absolutely nothing to the predators who prey upon us. They could give a plug nickel for your feelings, your morality, your sense of right & wrong or your sense of fairness. They could care less about your family... that you have infant children or that you go to church. They can't be reasoned with and can't be trusted. They also don't want you to try and "understand" them. They truly could care less! Those that can't wrap their head around that reality need not apply to be a member of my club. I'm not trying to knock people down by saying that most people or at least a lot of good people feel and believe they "know" all this even though they have never been touched by violence. A lot of people think they know what a scary neighborhood is and what goes on there even though they've never walked in one at 2 am on a friday night during a full moon. I lot of people believe they know what death and dying is all about yet have never seen a dead person except for seeing a dead friend or relative laid out for viewing in a funeral home or maybe inside a hospital room. A lot of folks get their idea of crime, the streets or violence from TV shows, movies, the local news or stories told by other people and then their imagination fills in the rest. I carry a gun because bad things happen to good people. I carry a gun because death is permanent, it happens in the blink of an eye, and because to the predators out there, life is cheap. I deal with death for a living. For 30 years I've seen it up close and personal. Touched it, smelled it, and had it ooze out of my hands. Seen so many murders it never occurred to me to try and count how many. People who begged me to help them and succumbed despite our best efforts. Comforted and treated a 14 year old girl tag teamed and repeatedly raped, beat, abused and forced to dig her own grave at gunpoint, only to survive because it was interrupted because unrelated events scared the offenders off during the crime. It's one thing to hear a story or see something reported on the news and think, OMG, that is horrible, what is this world coming to. It's a whole other thing to be there, see it, smell the blood, sweat and semen, touch and dress the wounds and hear the whimpers and sobs. Carrying her out of the woods to the surreal sounds of the summer crickets and the radio traffic on the police and ambulance radios. Grim and gruesome stuff no doubt. I carry a gun because I won't let that stuff happen to me or mine. I don't know why other people choose to carry their guns. People ask me about carrying a gun for self defense, I don't sugar coat things. I don't get into the philosophical debate of shooting to wound or shooting to kill. I shoot to stop the immediate threat period. If they die, so be it! I see death all the time. I'm shooting to save my life not the bad guys. If they live... they are lucky to be alive because what they were doing was trying to take my life, otherwise I wouldn't be shooting at them. Make no mistake... I won't hesitate or bat an eye to pull the trigger on some scumbag trying to kill me. If they die... I really don't think I will care one plug nickel. I see death all the time and the scumbags sure as hell don't care about my life. I'm not their priest and really don't care why they chose the wrong path in life. I know that there are a lot of CCW holders who really have no more than an abstract concept about what it is to take a life and there are many who carry and still haven't really come to terms with whether they feel they could kill someone or not. All I can say is, the sooner you come to terms with what is real and what are just abstract thoughts or wishes the better off you will be if the moment of truth does come to you. I can tell you, it won't be what you expect. Carrying a gun isn't for everyone and yet I believe everyone has the right to do so if they are truly good men and women and not prohibited by being a felon or mental defect. If anyone feels this post is inappropriate, I apologize. If I offended anyone, it was truly unintended! Philosophical debate on concepts, reasons, methods have a place and help people cope, learn, grow and accept... but it has no place at 1 am in the dark parking lot of an off campus coffee house when a 230 pound parolee tries to drag a 22 year old woman into a dark alley at knife point. Just my 2 cents... YMMV __________________ -Bark'n Semper Fi "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, will prey on those of us who without one, would surely perish." Last edited by Bark'n; July 2nd, 2008 at 09:59 PM.

July 2nd, 2008, 05:54 PM	#49
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,269	Bark'n Thats the streets, pure and simple. Succinct and to the point. Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

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