LongRider

Granted shooting someone may end their life no doubt. But most shootings 80% if my recollection is correct do not end in death. Should we focus more on a person willingness to shoot to stop a threat, rather than on their willingness to kill? Of course we need to accept the fact that if we shoot someone they may die but it is not the most likely out come. Or does that set us up for emotional devastation should some one die as a result of their being shot. Or worst lower our inhibitions about shooting a human being thereby increasing the likely hood of a bad shoot. Part of why I am asking is if this is a tact we should take with people reluctant to carry because they do not want to kill anyone. Seriously does anyone here really want to kill someone? I do not think so. Though most of us do accept that may happen. Maybe if we focus on death of the perp not being likely they would be more receptive to carrying to protect themselves

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Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

250,000 dead from chemical warfare in mass graves is not evidence of WMD

Ram Rod

Kill or be killed? If the headlines aren't enough, the stories, the interview with the perps, the thoughtless killings at the hand of criminals and their descriptions of such. Backed into a corner, I can be just as ruthless and without remorse. If that in any way scares you, or makes you feel uncomfortable that I walk the streets, then I am truly apologetic. Maybe my years in the Marine Corp prepare me more than the average person considering self preservation. Someone willing and attempting to kill me? That scenario demands an equal and opposite reaction with little room for doubt. I'm willing and able and I'll stop the threat to my life no matter the outcome or consequences. I live day in and day out with that notion and I've never second guessed it. Firearms have their limitations as do people. Modern medicine is nothing short of magical in some instances. Let the chips fall where they may.

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RamRod-----sans remords

dukalmighty

I will shoot to stop the threat and hopefully my aim will blow his heart apart,once the threat is over the law does not allow a coup de grace or execution shot.

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I like Poetry,Long Walks On The Beach,And Poking Dead Things With A Stick

Cuda66

If I use a firearm in self defense, I'm using lethal force.

Let me reitirate: lethal force.

I'm not going to try and kid myself "Hey, they might not die...it's not all that bad!". Those rounds exiting the barrel are going to do very, very bad things to the receiver; and, while yes, we aren't shooting to kill, we're not shooting to...annoy (unless of course, you're packing a .25 or something ()) either.

So, all in all--yes, if you don't assume that when you shoot somebody that a lethal outcome is likely, you're setting yourself up.

(Now--that doesn't mean that you should assume that your handgun is a guaranteed death-ray either; but that's a can of worms of a different color.)

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One man's theology is another man's belly laugh. --RAH

limatunes

Very good questions and points.

While I shoot to stop the threat, as you said, anyone who carries needs to understand that once the bullet has left the end of your barrel you have absolutely no say in what kind of damage it will do. Even if you shoot someone in the leg you could hit an artery that leaves them lifeless in less than minutes.

No, I certainly do NOT want to kill anyone and I pray and pray and pray that I never have to, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing if I am forced to.

I've never killed anyone and I'm very glad for it, but I DO KNOW that if I ever have to do so it's going to be a very traumatic event. I am probably going to have to go through a lot and even if I'm cleared and told by EVERYONE that it was completely justifiable I may be forced to live with doubt the rest of my life as to whether I made the right decision.

I've been through some traumatic times and had to deal with some pretty rough stuff that messed me up pretty bad emotionally and mentally for awhile, and as bad as all that was I'm expecting that dealing with the fact that you have taken a life is probably even worse than anything I've dealt with before. But I believe that I will get through it, whatever it takes. I'll do counseling, I'll talk about it, I'll mourn, I'll do whatever I need to do to deal with it and keep living my life.

Understanding that, accepting that, and making the conscious choice to be willing to put myself through all of that again to defend myself or someone I loved is one of the reasons I know I'm ready to carry a gun in self defense.

There are people out there who, once they started thinking about that, would not be willing to go through that.

My mother once told me that if she ever took a human life she would never be able to forgive herself. She understands that even if it was self defense and the world held no blame for her and God held no blame for her she would live the rest of her life in misery at the knowledge that she had taken a life. She said she respects and understands people who believe they could but she couldn't do it.

She won't carry a gun and I don't think she should. God bless her for knowing herself well enough to know that she could not take the emotional or mental strain of taking a life.

To be honest, no one (other than those who have already had to take lives in the course of their duties) knows if they are able to take the burden of that kind of emotional and mental stress. I could be completely fooling myself and if I were forced to act on what I BELIEVE I may find myself completely crushed and ruined, devastated by the act. I have no way of knowing until that time comes (which, of course, I pray never does).

In my opinion, telling someone it's not very likely someone they shoot would die and therefore "talking them into" (i.e. pushing them into) carrying a gun is dangerous and irresponsible.

They NEED to know it's lethal potential and they NEED to be ready for that or they are NOT ready to carry a gun.

I shiver and shudder when people come into the shop telling me they want a gun but they are "NEVER going to kill anyone," they are just "going to shoot them in the leg."

They could be setting themselves up for SERIOUS, SERIOUS, DEVASTATING anguish if the shot they fired into someone's leg (if they are able to actually make that shot) proves to be lethal.

At least recognizing that every bullet is potentially lethal is essential.

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Holy Moses, this child is active!

Limatunes' Range Diaries

On a shooting hiatus until our son is born...

retsupt99

Except for my 'Coast Guard' experiences...you sound like me...
My wife and I were just talking again during the news tonight about the actions of some local dirtbag. We discussed quick violent action, no regrets (so you better be sure)...and reactons afterwards.
My abilities and my weapons DO have their limitations, but I will use them to MY advantage.
Each day we become more and more aware of how closely we may have come to some predator's eyeball...

Stay armed...stay alert, are you ready?...stay safe!

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"That I cannot do."

"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."


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McCain/Palin 2008

NRA Life Member

Eagleks

If the situation is not a definite live or not, the gun stays in the holster, unless it's checking for a burglar and/or similar situation.

So, if I even pull it.... it's to fire it and the threat on my life has already been determined, and it's me or them. I"ld rather it be them.

I do suggest... some keep those guns in their holsters and not be so quick to pull them out, as someone may mistake their intentions and reasons.... and they may be the one considered the threat. "officer, I saw this guy pull a gun out when my sister was approaching him in his car ..... I was in fear he was going to shoot her , so I shot him first".

CR2008

Biology will throw most of that 'I can't shoot someone' out the window when the perp is gutting them or a loved one... when you,re getting shot at, stabbed, sexually assaulted etc all that philosophy won't be the initial thing the victim will think of... it will either be FIGHT or FLIGHT while adrenalin is pumped through your blood stream and other bodily changes take place, not lamenting on 'can I really shot?' It's no different from moving your hand away after being burned or pricked, or flinching if you feel something is going to hit you in the face.... such survival mechanisms are internal and have NOTHING to do with philosophy and more to do with instincts with survival value. The idea of "Killing" won't even be the first thing the body will think of, it will be to SURVIVE and using whatever options are available is apart of this, such as escape or to fight back... the death of the attacker is only a possible result of the victim/target fighting back.

ALSO... in case you missed most of the recent news reports, many criminals are attacking and even executing people who are both unarmed, and people who complied FULLY with their demands (Remember the 6 women who got SHOT IN THE HEAD while they were hog tied by an armed robber in the women clothing store in IL? They complied fully, and the perp executing them was in no way self defence... and Just resently a father and his children were murdered in cold blood when they drove down the wrong ally and an MS13 gangmember took offense to the victim getting in the way of their car, so the guy emptied a clim on everyone inside the car, this was in San Fransisco just some days ago), their weapons (as you assumed wrongly) are not for defensive purposes but OFFENSIVE purposes.


When a gunmen drives you to a secluded part of town after you drove around to ATMS giving him money, or after car jacking you at a stop light at 2am in the 'hood,' keep telling yourself that criminals carry guns for "protection" against a vastly defenseless sociaty... and that 80% of GSW are none fatal (How much end in brain damage, paralisis and other SERIOUS injuries? IMHO there are states of life WORST THAN DEATH... look on Terri Schiavo

The statistics that you stand a 80% chance of not being killed if shot brings no comfort, you could survive and your life will literally be at an end though your body functions.

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http://www.bloombergfightbackfund.com/
Sig P220R/Sig P239 (9mm)/ S&W 640/ Ruger Single Six Hunter (.22LR/Mag)/ CZ 452 Varmint .22LR/ Lee Enfield No4 MK2 sporterized dated 1959/ Mosin Nagant M90-30 dated 1942/

rumblefish

Just carry and use the damn 'pepper spray' and it will get you out of most situations. Then you won't have to worry about using your gun. But just don't carry a gun. Carry the spray, maybe a knife, also. I LIKE the spray thing, except when you're confronted with a gun/knife, but then you in deep doo-doo anyway.

Other night I was walking in parking lot in not great neighborhood. Had to walk past three fellas who could've been gang-bangers. I had the pepper spray out in my right hand, ready to deploy.

Ended up talking with them about how nice their spruced-up car was...they were okay fellas.

rhinokrk

What is the difference?
Violence begets violence. Hands on hands or weapon on weapon, I'm going for the win (stop the threat, kill the the threat... same same)

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Get the U.N. out of the U.S.
Get the U.S. out of the U.N.