chuck brick

That's about what I thought, but I thank you for clarifying further. That means to me that (like everywhere else I've ever been) the local police (and even the State police) frequently don't know any more about state/local laws than the average citizen. Although it's rather disappointing that more LEO's don't take a deeper personal interest in the laws they are expected to enforce, I also think it's a failure that the departments don't make more effort to educate them. It's one thing to confront someone in violation of a law (even jay-walking), but it should never be acceptable to accost a law-abiding citizen because of ignorance. If "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" for the citizenry, why should it be for those that earn their living enforcing it?
I'm not on a tear against LEO's; I know they're made of meat just like the rest of us. I just believe that, given their chosen carreer field, they should feel obligated, indeed should be obligated, to be more knowledgeable than the average person. I know I've been stopped for a non-issue before, and only avoided arrest because I quoted the complete law word for word, and overwhelmed the cop that was trying to make it an issue. (FWIW - It was only a small belt-knife that I've carried for years.)

(I guess it's fortunate I'm not strongly opinionated )

Stay safe,

Chuck Brick.

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Juggernaut

But any time an officer of the law stops you in VA is considered an "arrest". You may be let go, summoned to appear, or charged and booked.

I OC'd before I got my CHP, but I have been OC'ing much more as of late. I'm not going to let discrimination against OC'ers prevent me from doing so.

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Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
-Horace

DaveH

You might want to check you source on that.

Case law, rather than statute, lays out that there are consensual interviews, brief investigatory detentions (a.k.a. Terry Stops), and Arrests (or apprehension).

__________________
I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

Veni, Vidi, Velcro

SIXTO

I bet that most of them are far more knowledgeable about "the law" than you or the average citizen, but it just so happens that you have a great deal of interest in this particular topic, so you do know more about the laws in this particular very narrow scope of interest.

Anyway, I think I'm going to do an experiment and post my findings here, since there seems to be a lot of interest and fear about open carry, and I'm not a fan of OC for a lot of reasons. Maybe I can prove my own theories wrong.

I'm going to pick a week this summer, and open carry all day everyday. To the grocery, to Home Depot, Walmart where ever. OC is legal in Ohio, plus I am a LEO so I am safe in doing so from a legal perspective.

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DaveH

Let us know.

OTOH, it might be a biased sample. I get very little reaction most of the time. However, when I'm with my son (high & tight hair, hulk, OCing a very service looking S&W in a triple-retention holster, and extruding the LEO he is) and some of his fellow officers, no one pay any attention to the bearded old fart OCing. We have even been to a couple restaurants that have no posted sign, but normally ask armed folk to leave, w/o incident.

If you look rather LEOish, or are planning to do it where you are well known, you might get a different response than if you try it on vacation somewhere else w/ a few days of beard and very casual wear, w/ a non-typically issued sidearm (a silver colored wheel gun, a custom 1911 locked & loaded, a SIG 220 SAS, etc) OC'ed in a light brown leather OWB.

But, please let us know how it went.

__________________
I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

Veni, Vidi, Velcro

SIXTO

I'm fresh out of narcotics investigation, I've cleaned up a lot, but I'm still not the typical LEO cut out. I look more like I should be riding around on a surfboard rather than a cruiser.
I'll purposely choose a 1911 or perhaps a Kahr to not give the "duty gun" look. I'll also use a plain leather holster, maybe something simple from Hume or Galco.

FWIW, I am very much not for O/C, I think its a bad idea for a few reasons... but I'm willing to give it a whirl.

__________________
Only in America .....do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.

DaveH

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Sounds good.

__________________
I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

Veni, Vidi, Velcro

Juggernaut

Several VSP officers on different occasions. Any kind of traffic stop is considered an "arrest". Walking around is another story. A "stop", to me, is when a person is in his or her car. A cop walking up to a person is more of an "interview".

__________________
Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
-Horace

pgrass101

To really test it you need to Mexican carry (in front waist band) a Taurus 85 with duct tape wrapped around the grip and trigger.

Plus don't bath or change clothes for a few days, see what type of reactions you get

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Noli nothis permittere te terere

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tankdriver

TN is a "Carry Permit", not concealed permit. However I am a big proponent id concealed carry. BUT I carry this letter in my wallet just in case. It is an opinion from the State Attorney General.

S T A T E O F T E N N E S S E E
OFFICE OF THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL
PO BOX 20207
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37202
October 11, 2005
Opinion No. 05-154
Civilian Handgun Permits
QUESTIONS

1. Does Tennessee law require that individuals who have been issued civilian handgun
permits under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 carry the handgun(s) concealed?

2. If Tennessee law does not require concealment of a handgun by a civilian handgun
permit holder, may a law enforcement officer legally arrest an individual for carrying a handgun
openly in Tennessee if the individual is not carrying it in a prohibited location (e.g., courtroom)?

3. May a law enforcement officer legally seize a handgun carry permit from an
individual when that individual is arrested or charged with a crime?

OPINIONS

1. No. Neither Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351, nor any other statute governing the
carrying of firearms, requires the holder of a handgun carry permit to carry the handgun in a
concealed manner.

2. Yes. A handgun carry permit holder may be arrested for carrying a handgun openly
if he or she is using the handgun to commit a crime, or is otherwise engaged in criminal activity
while carrying the handgun.

3. No. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1352(c) states that a law enforcement officer may only
seize a handgun carry permit when directed to do so by the Department of Safety.

ANALYSIS

1. The primary objective of statutory construction is to ascertain legislative intent. If
the language of the statute is clear and unambiguous, courts are supposed to ascertain that intent
from the plain and ordinary meaning of the language. Honsa v. Tombigbee Transport Corp., 141
S.W.3d 540 (Tenn. 2004).
The plain meaning of the statutes governing, or prohibiting, the carrying of handguns and
other weapons indicates that, in situations where the legislature has permitted the carrying of

1 Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 sets forth the requirements that must be satisfied for the issuance of
a carry permit to a citizen of this state. It also sets forth the requirements for honoring permits issued by other states
on the basis of reciprocity. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(r). The grounds under which a police officer may hold
and/or seize a handgun in the possession of a permit holder are listed in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(t). The statute,
however, is silent on whether a permit holder may carry a handgun openly.
Other statutes which address the carrying of handguns and other firearms are also silent on the issue. Tenn.
Code Ann. § 39-17-1307, which prohibits the carrying of weapons for purposes of going armed, makes no distinction
between weapons carried openly and those which are carried concealed. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1308(a)(2) states
that possession of a handgun carry permit is a defense to a charge of carrying a weapon for purposes of going armed,
but does not specify whether the handgun must be concealed or carried openly.

2 In the past, he General Assembly has imposed specific requirements concerning the carrying of
firearms in public. The former statute prohibiting the carrying or possession of firearms, Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-6-1701
(repealed Acts 1989, c. 591 §1) stated, in pertinent part:
Any person who shall carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed
. . . any pistol or revolver of any kind whatever, except the army or navy pistol
which shall be carried openly in the hand, or any other dangerous weapon, shall be
guilty of a misdemeanor.

3 A permit holder may not carry a handgun, either openly or concealed, in areas where the legislature
has expressly prohibited it, such as where alcoholic beverages are served (Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1305), during
judicial proceedings (Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1306), on the grounds of any public or private school (Tenn. Code Ann.
§ 39-17-1309), in public parks, playgrounds, civic centers, and other public recreational buildings and grounds (Tenn.
Code Ann. § 39-17-1311), or where an individual, corporation, business entity, or local, state, or federal government
entity has prohibited the possession of a weapon under the provisions of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359.

4 Under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1308(a)(2), possession of a handgun permit is a defense to the crime
of carrying a weapon for the purpose of going armed.
handguns, the legislature intended to authorize the carrying of handguns both openly and concealed.

The statutes governing the wearing and carrying of firearms neither expressly prohibit the permit
holder from carrying a handgun openly, nor expressly require the permit holder to carry the
handgun concealed.

1. Reading Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 in pari materia with §§ 39-17-1307 and 1308(a)(2)
indicates that the legislature intended to allow carry permit holders to carry their handguns both
openly and concealed. If the legislature had intended to require a permit holder to carry his or her
handgun concealed, it would have done so by prohibiting the open carrying of a handgun and
expressly requiring the concealed carry of a handgun.

2. As set forth in part 1, above, the holder of a handgun carry permit may lawfully carry his
or her handgun both openly and concealed.3 Therefore, a permit holder should not be subject to
arrest solely because the handgun is being carried openly. There is nothing, however, in any of the
statutes cited in part 1 that would prohibit the arrest of a handgun permit holder for other crimes.4

3. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1352(c) is the only statute which authorizes law
enforcement officers to seize handgun carry permits. It allows law enforcement officers to seize
permits only at the direction of the Department of Safety, after a permit has been suspended or
revoked. There are no statutes authorizing a law enforcement officer to seize a handgun carry permit
under any other circumstances.
Under rules of statutory construction, the expression of one thing implies the exclusion of
others. State v. Adler, 92 S.W.3d 397 (Tenn. 2002). The failure to authorize law enforcement
officers to seize permits, except under the narrow grant of authority in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-
1352(c), indicates that the legislature did not intend to authorize law enforcement officers to seize
handgun carry permits except at the direction of the Department of Safety, pursuant to Tenn. Code
Ann. § 39-17-1352(c).


PAUL G. SUMMERS
Attorney General
MICHAEL E. MOORE
Solicitor General
LIZABETH A. HALE
Assistant Attorney General
Requested by:
Hon. Ben West, Jr.
State Representative
Suite 37, Legislative Plaza
Nashville, TN 37243

__________________
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