Do you s'pose the rumors are true - Page 4

Tangle · January 31st, 2006, 11:37 AM

Not taken as a flame; I have read them. But, the funny thing is after it's all said and done, the ammo that ranks high in the M&S "research", also ranks high in other "research". All seem to agree that the premium JHP ammo from major manufacturers work well.

And again, not defending the M&S method, conclusions, etc. but merely observing consistency with other studies, etc.; the M&S data indicate the 9mm, .357 sig, .40 cal., .45 ACP, and .357 mag have comparable ability to stop a fight. Most "authorities" find/claim the same thing.

Tangle · January 31st, 2006, 11:53 AM

Ex,
I am totally confused by:
"...I'm not questioning YOU, Tangle. But there are so many wannabe SEALs that there is a special website to insure the frauds are outed!...

What's confusing me is that after that you go on to emphasize how much training SEALS get, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. SEALS are well trained with a handgun, while the Army troops for the most part are poorly trained, if at all. My point was that the SEALs, because of their good training, get good shot placement and good results. The poorly trained "troops" get poor placement and poor results.

Then,
"...That's why I find it difficult to believe this SEAL spoke of the Mozambique..."

On the chance that that refers to the SEAL I referred to, I could be wrong but I don't believe that two to the COM and one to the head is a Mozambique drill. Isn't the Mozambique drill starting 10 yards away from three targets and putting two rounds to the COM of each target and then one to the head of each?

In any event, the point being made was that two COM and a head shot is not caliber sensitive, well with regard to 9mm or .45 ACP. Also that the SEALs that use 9mm don't seem to be disgruntled with the caliber.

OD · January 31st, 2006, 12:10 PM

Mozambique drill
http://www.thegunzone.com/lore.html

Quote:

El Presidente and Variations

El Presidente was designed by Jeff Cooper as a rough benchmark of handgun skills. It is probably the most widely known handgun standard around.

Setup: three IPSC targets, spaced one yard apart, 10 yards distant.

Starting Position: gun holstered, spare magazine on belt, hands held above shoulders (surrender position), facing away (180 degrees) from targets.

Drill: At the signal, turn and draw, firing two shots into the A-zone of each target. Reload, and fire two more shots into each target.

As originally specified, the drill only counts if all shots are in the A-zone. A missed A-zone counts as a missed target. But when shot in competition, all hits on the target usually count, with standard IPSC comstock scoring.

Tangle · January 31st, 2006, 12:17 PM

OD,

Thanks! I was confusing the Mozambique with El Presidente.

OD · January 31st, 2006, 12:19 PM

You're welcome, it's easy to do.

ExSoldier · January 31st, 2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Mozambique drill
http://www.thegunzone.com/lore.html

Jeff Cooper started circulating the Mozambique some time after he designed the El Presidente course of fire. Today the Mozambique is more in line with the LEO "Failure to Stop" drill. Two to the chest...assess...and one to the head. Although I think, IIRC, that Cooper picked up the term Mozambique in reference to African merc operations.

OD · January 31st, 2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

El Presidente is not the Mozambique

I know, he explains that in the link I posted.

maclean3 · January 31st, 2006, 01:40 PM

Thanks guys, I always wondered what the Mozambique drill was. Was actually going to post that question later today.
Jack

ExSoldier · January 31st, 2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangle

Ex,
I am totally confused by:
"...I'm not questioning YOU, Tangle. But there are so many wannabe SEALs that there is a special website to insure the frauds are outed!...

What's confusing me is that after that you go on to emphasize how much training SEALS get, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. SEALS are well trained with a handgun, while the Army troops for the most part are poorly trained, if at all. My point was that the SEALs, because of their good training, get good shot placement and good results. The poorly trained "troops" get poor placement and poor results. I think I made a point of marking a distinction between army troops who carry a sidearm as a primary or secondary weapon. Troops who have to qualify semi-annually with the hangun will do so in the three levels: Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert, right? Most who know they may have to defend themselves up close with a pistol will try to score expert. Unless they're a recent product of the public schools...in which case they'll handle it like it was a live King Cobra!

Then, "...That's why I find it difficult to believe this SEAL spoke of the Mozambique..."

On the chance that that refers to the SEAL I referred to, I could be wrong but I don't believe that two to the COM and one to the head is a Mozambique drill. Isn't the Mozambique drill starting 10 yards away from three targets and putting two rounds to the COM of each target and then one to the head of each?Why would a SEAL go two to COM when they're trained (5000 rds a week!) for the head shot? I'm questioning if this was a real SEAL (unless you know him personally, in which case I humbly apologize to you and to him!) See my post and OD's concerning the difference between Mozambique and El Presidente

In any event, the point being made was that two COM and a head shot is not caliber sensitive, well with regard to 9mm or .45 ACP. Also that the SEALs that use 9mm don't seem to be disgruntled with the caliber.

No, they went to the Sig Sauer P226 because they had a problem with the slides cracking on the M9's. But SEALs also use the S&W M66 .357 and have been known to use the SOCOM MK21. That's one reason I give credence to the story I quoted about the TORA BORA operation.

But there is still plenty of evidence from the "Operators" that shot for shot in body mass that does not include hits on the central nervous system, the 9mm leaves a bit to be desired whereas the 45 seems to be more effective. At least where it comes to the standard of 230gr ball and whatever the standard weight ball ammo is used for the 9mm.

Tangle · January 31st, 2006, 02:16 PM

Ex,

I think his point was that he was very confident in the 9mm with good shot placement and the two to the COM and one to the head was just one of many options he had available.

As for Army handgun qualifying I'll have to confirm this, but the solder I talked to didn't say anything about having to qualify with his handgun. In fact, he strongly insinuated they barely got to shoot their handguns at all. The ones I personally saw shoot a handgun were very poor shots.

All I was saying was that we may not have as much a caliber issue as a training issue. It would be nice if somebody would compile all the data and show conclusively that one caliber is better than all others. But, I haven't heard of such a study or conclusions.

"...plenty of evidence from the "Operators" that shot for shot in body mass that does not include hits on the central nervous system, the 9mm leaves a bit to be desired whereas the 45 seems to be more effective..."

Well clearly there's the problem - many of us have not seen this body of evidence, I know I haven't. I didn't even realize it was available. Any chance that we can see this?

January 31st, 2006, 12:19 PM	#35
OD VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Vatican City Posts: 3,302	You're welcome, it's easy to do. __________________ OD "Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...." -------------------------------------------- *"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper*

January 31st, 2006, 02:16 PM	#40
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	Ex, I think his point was that he was very confident in the 9mm with good shot placement and the two to the COM and one to the head was just one of many options he had available. As for Army handgun qualifying I'll have to confirm this, but the solder I talked to didn't say anything about having to qualify with his handgun. In fact, he strongly insinuated they barely got to shoot their handguns at all. The ones I personally saw shoot a handgun were very poor shots. All I was saying was that we may not have as much a caliber issue as a training issue. It would be nice if somebody would compile all the data and show conclusively that one caliber is better than all others. But, I haven't heard of such a study or conclusions. "...plenty of evidence from the "Operators" that shot for shot in body mass that does not include hits on the central nervous system, the 9mm leaves a bit to be desired whereas the 45 seems to be more effective..." Well clearly there's the problem - many of us have not seen this body of evidence, I know I haven't. I didn't even realize it was available. Any chance that we can see this? Last edited by Tangle; January 31st, 2006 at 04:04 PM..

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January 31st, 2006, 11:37 AM	#31
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	Not taken as a flame; I have read them. But, the funny thing is after it's all said and done, the ammo that ranks high in the M&S "research", also ranks high in other "research". All seem to agree that the premium JHP ammo from major manufacturers work well. And again, not defending the M&S method, conclusions, etc. but merely observing consistency with other studies, etc.; the M&S data indicate the 9mm, .357 sig, .40 cal., .45 ACP, and .357 mag have comparable ability to stop a fight. Most "authorities" find/claim the same thing.

January 31st, 2006, 11:53 AM	#32
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	Ex, I am totally confused by: "...I'm not questioning YOU, Tangle. But there are so many wannabe SEALs that there is a special website to insure the frauds are outed!... What's confusing me is that after that you go on to emphasize how much training SEALS get, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. SEALS are well trained with a handgun, while the Army troops for the most part are poorly trained, if at all. My point was that the SEALs, because of their good training, get good shot placement and good results. The poorly trained "troops" get poor placement and poor results. Then, "...That's why I find it difficult to believe this SEAL spoke of the Mozambique..." On the chance that that refers to the SEAL I referred to, I could be wrong but I don't believe that two to the COM and one to the head is a Mozambique drill. Isn't the Mozambique drill starting 10 yards away from three targets and putting two rounds to the COM of each target and then one to the head of each? In any event, the point being made was that two COM and a head shot is not caliber sensitive, well with regard to 9mm or .45 ACP. Also that the SEALs that use 9mm don't seem to be disgruntled with the caliber.

January 31st, 2006, 12:17 PM	#34
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	OD, Thanks! I was confusing the Mozambique with El Presidente.

January 31st, 2006, 01:40 PM	#38
maclean3 VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 3,062	Thanks guys, I always wondered what the Mozambique drill was. Was actually going to post that question later today. Jack