Do you s'pose the rumors are true - Page 5

Bud White · January 31st, 2006, 06:03 PM

ill throw gas on the fire ..lol

Ill still take a 45 and be happy with it and a 9mm also .. I know my shooting is good

Do i feel as confident with the 9 as i would a 45 no but thats why my 9 carries 18 rounds 8 of 45 is good 16 10mm is better ..

Got to rember no matter what you do you cant convince someone who is set against the ideal a lesser caliber 9mm in this matter is good ..

Ive read tons about it saying how great it is blah blah blah ... But i still cant bring myself to totally trust it .. 8 rounds of 45 never broke a sweat was sure it would do the just just wanted more rounds...

No one will convince me or probley Ex for that matter 9mm is better for what its worth in all the written stuff youll find 357 Magnum is still one of the highest rated cartridges..

ExSoldier · January 31st, 2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud White

No one will convince me or probably Ex for that matter 9mm is better for what its worth in all the written stuff you'll find 357 Magnum is still one of the highest rated cartridges..

LOL AMEN Bud! I own two 9mm's and they're both superb weapons. In an emergency I'd feel well armed with either of them. But in a situation where I have the ability and time to choose, I'll take the 40 or 45. I'm not trying to change anybody elses mind either, this is good natured discourse for all concerned....or it should be. Nobody should feel "attacked" or flamed or anything. If I've given any offense, I apologize.

Bud White · January 31st, 2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExSoldier762

LOL AMEN Bud! I own two 9mm's and they're both superb weapons. In an emergency I'd feel well armed with either of them. But in a situation where I have the ability and time to choose, I'll take the 40 or 45. I'm not trying to change anybody elses mind either, this is good natured discourse for all concerned....or it should be. Nobody should feel "attacked" or flamed or anything. If I've given any offense, I apologize.

only reason i bought a 9mm was mrs like the subcompact and said she might get lic to carry never did so i packed it ...

Then she said hey the glock 9 with all them rounds looks sweet buy one...

Never thought about a 40 till just recently ive always been a 45 man in autopistols

Tangle · February 1st, 2006, 08:37 AM

When I look at a 9mm round next to a .45 round, to me it's a no-brainer -- that big ole .45 ought to be clearly superior in man stopping power.

But when it comes to the real world, for some reason that huge difference in cartridge size doesn't show up in performance. To wit, as a challenge to all of us, let's try to come up with some documented evidence that ANY round of 9mm, .357 sig, .40 cal., .357 mag and .45 has been proven conclusively better than the other.

Why do you suppose the 9mm/.45 discussions never end? Because nobody has been able to prove consistent superiority of one bullet over another. If they did, this discussion would be over at that point. It is significant that no one can produce a study that shows a .45 is truly superior to a 9mm. In fact, in one study that Ernst Langdon was involved with while training at Quantico, they found the 9mm actually had some edge over the .45.

When I talked to Ernst about caliber and I made the comment that it seems like I should be carrying my Sig 220 instead of my Sig 226, he disagreed, based on studies he has been involved with. He's one reason I carry a 9mm.

As for the military, based on my contacts with soldiers, reading comments from soldiers who have actually been there, the Beretta is a fine gun that got a bad name from inferior magazines. A seargent leading a squad of five in Iraq wrote me and said their guns weren't feeding correctly after the first few shots, what can they do?

I contacted Wolff Gunsprings and talked to them about mag springs. They immediately confirmed that the magazines were the problem and said that they had already sent 200 of their +10% springs (no charge) to Iraq. They sent me, no charge, ten +10% springs so I could send them to the squad in Iraq. The non-Beretta magazine (low bid) is so bad that the +10% springs only help, but doesn't fix the problem. I am unaware of ANY reliability problems with the Beretta pistol using Beretta mags.

As for the troop claiming the 9mm doesn't have the same stopping power, who said it? How many rounds did they fire? How many were significant hits? How did they determine that a .45 under the exact same conditions would have performed better?

Actually, I think what the real issue is, is that they they get little handgun training and hence they shoot handguns poorly which undoubtedly would lead to the conclusion that the problem is a gun or ammo problem. I would seriously doubt if the same guys used a .45 they would have significantly better results.

Then look at the Texas LEO experience. When they gave up their .45s for .357 Sig, their qualifying scores went way up. The Tennessee Highway Patrol just upgraded their 9mms to .357 sigs. They could have gone to .45, why didn't they? The Air Marshalls chose the .357 sig over the .45, why? SEALs use 9mm, again why?

These discussions only exist because of the lack of evidence that one round is superior to another. Once again, if you know of any specific body of evidence that you can present, I'd love to see it.

ExSoldier · February 1st, 2006, 12:15 PM

Somebody was asking if this was true or speculation. Check THIS out: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htw.../20060127.aspx

Here is the text:

U.S. Brings Back the .45
January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.

ExSoldier · February 1st, 2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangle

Why do you suppose the 9mm/.45 discussions never end? Because nobody has been able to prove consistent superiority of one bullet over another. Ex: Good point.

As for the military, based on my contacts with soldiers, reading comments from soldiers who have actually been there, the Beretta is a fine gun that got a bad name from inferior magazines. I am unaware of ANY reliability problems with the Beretta pistol using Beretta mags. Ex: I haven't had any problems with MY M92 and it's mags. But I'm not using it under combat conditions, either.

As for the troop claiming the 9mm doesn't have the same stopping power, who said it? How many rounds did they fire? How many were significant hits? How did they determine that a .45 under the exact same conditions would have performed better? Well, enough folks have said it that the USMC and SOCOM seem to have taken the "official" action of offering the 45 as an acceptable alternative.

Actually, I think what the real issue is, is that they they get little handgun training and hence they shoot handguns poorly which undoubtedly would lead to the conclusion that the problem is a gun or ammo problem. I would seriously doubt if the same guys used a .45 they would have significantly better results.

Then look at the Texas LEO experience. When they gave up their .45s for .357 Sig, their qualifying scores went way up. The Tennessee Highway Patrol just upgraded their 9mms to .357 sigs. They could have gone to .45, why didn't they? The Air Marshalls chose the .357 sig over the .45, why? SEALs use 9mm, again why?

Ex: As far as the Air Marshall program goes, I think this is a B-I-G mistake and might have been the result of a marketing campaign rather than concrete tests. The 357 sig is waaaay too LOUD and waaaay too overpenetrative for an airliner. Even with frangible ammo, which is what they're using, IIRC and given the number of folks on this forum who think that Glaser and MagSafe is all hype, what does that say about such a decision? Part of that decision making process IMHO, included a mindset that the troops had to start thinking about combat and LE work from the perspective of the 21st century rather than the era of ummmmm 1911.

These discussions only exist because of the lack of evidence that one round is superior to another. Once again, if you know of any specific body of evidence that you can present, I'd love to see it.

See the link I provided as to the execution of the replacements. It seems as if it's going to happen. This I think is a product of the most powerful force in warfare, business or politics....PERCEPTION.

I prefer the 45 unswervingly over the 9mm because I perceive that it will be superior in a hostile encounter. Yet were I armed with a 9mm, I would not feel defenseless. I would rely on my training and experience to win the day regardless of the caliber I used. The troops aren't getting satisfactory stops because of a perception that the round is inferior, instead of a hard self assessment that their training might be deficient. The chain of command refuses to acknowledge that training might be deficient, which would be a direct cause of KIA's and that would have negative public reactions and potential political fallout. Solution? "Upgrade" the equipment.

This could also be a residual effect, even a backlash of "American Nationalism." The 9mm is a product of european firearms makers. In accepting the NATO round as the US standard, there might have been a perception that we as a nation were turning our backs on our own heritage that had so successfully seen us through so many global conflicts to victory. Thus a rejection of the 9mm might be seen as a return to the roots of Americanism and it might not have much to do with the effectiveness of the round, since you yourself (Tangle) posited that effective hits (or the lack of) are what they are, regardless of caliber.

Euclidean · February 1st, 2006, 01:07 PM

My father was by trade an electrical engineer.

One day, when I was about 9 I think, he had a crew foreman come into his office and describe a load that they were going to be running off of one of his power lines. He listened carefully and said to foreman.

"Well, it sounds to me like you've already got it figured out."

The crewman shook his head and explained his conundrum.

"But I don't know if I should use the smaller cable or the larger cable. I think the smaller one should do it, but they might need the larger one."

My father looked back at him and simply said this:

"Then use the larger one since we can be more certain it'll do the job. Let's do it right the first time."

Now I don't know if the dialog went like that exactly, but that's the gist of it.

At this point the crew foreman was perplexed and slightly upset and my dad asked him why. And he said where are the tests, the equations, the printouts? Where are the charts and graphs and notes and spec sheets of these products? Why aren't you doing more work than this to make this decision rather than just saying use the bigger cable and be done with it?

My dad looked back at him and said the same thing again. "Because I know with more certainty the bigger cable will handle the load better."

(FYI I've been carrying a 9mm pistol while waiting for my holsters to show up... but FWIW...)

Tangle · February 1st, 2006, 01:14 PM

Two watermelon farmers were driving their crop to market and one said to the other, "I just figured our costs and selling price and we're not making any money." The other says, "What do you think we need to do?" He thought for a moment and replied, "We need to get a bigger truck."

If it isn't a caliber problem, changing calibers won't help. I talked to a guy that's been there and done that for many years and trained troops. He says that for the most part if the soldier understands how the gun works and can make it shoot, that's his training. The soldiers I took shooting say the same thing.

Then there remains the issue that when Texas LE went from the .45 to the .357 sig, there qualification scores went up dramatically and I've heard little if any complaint about stopping power.

This won't seem right, but I'm not real confident the "military" knows what works. They went from the .45 to the 9mm to the .45; from the 30-06 to the .308 to the .223 and now they don't seem to know what to use.

OTOH, the FBI has done extensive testing and I'm not sure they know what works. They first adopted the 10mm, and that didn't work out so they went to the .40 cal. in Glock and I think Sig except for the HRTs that went to 1911 in .45.

If there was a definitive advantage, seems like with all this testing, we ought to know what it is by now. Probably the most dominate round in LE is the .40 cal.

ExSoldier · February 1st, 2006, 01:19 PM

This was just posted on the board of my IDPA club in discussing this same topic. I found it interesting enough to cut and paste it here.
__________________________________________________
This was to be expected - Yes troops are going to complain about "stopping" power - The problem is (and now that I've been shooting w/the club I've become really aware of this) is that they are not addressing the issue of basic marksmanship - Many Soldiers just like many lay civilians are under the impression that there does exist a magic bullet that will take care of all their problems - That if you hit someone in the shoulder this "magic" bullet will put them down for good...Let me share with you how they aka we come to this conclusion:

1-Military qualification (US Army) I can't talk about the other services - Are designed to shot from 25meters out to 300 meters - on hydraulically operated targets - Now if you can even SEE the 300 target and hit it on the upper shoulder it will go down immediately - Thus considered a "kill" The same goes for the 25 meter target. You never really go down range to check up on your targets.

2-TV - People are accustomed (and soldiers as well) to seeing people dropped dead in their tracks by that one magical bullet - Rarely do you ever see in a movie someone perform a failure drill/Mozambique on someone.

3-Motivation - Why do they people believe that as the "good guy' that the bad guys should automatically fall down and play dead when they are shot? They are just as motivated to get us as we are to get them - So you shoot someone in the arm/shoulder/etc - If they are motivated, they'll just keep on coming - The same would be true if it were reverse.

So you put these 3 factors together, and you have a whole slew of people believing that there is a "magic" bullet aka .45 calibre that can do the job -

I bet in NONE of those reports will they ever mention shot placement, failure drills, shooting them until they are no longer a threat, bill drills,etc....

I'll even throw this one out - People in the Spec Ops (SOCOM) community who really want to hone their skills, actually join local IDPA clubs to increase their weapon/marksmanship proficiency and LEARN.

If any one of these Spec Ops operators is honest with you, he will also tell you that the average IDPA shooter, will give him a run for his money. If you don't believe me, ask any of the members who's been to a regional match, that had in attendance Soldiers from any of the SF groups - Humbling experience to say the least.

I bet rifle/pistol marksmanship scores won't go up one bit.
_______________________________________________

ExSoldier, again: As I said: Perception is everything.

Tangle · February 1st, 2006, 01:26 PM

Euc,

I understand, but we don't know that the bigger is better when it's between the 9mm and .45ACP; if so, when did we find out?

Ex,
A follow-up on your posts; this is NOT me:

"I've got 18+ years of service in the Army and experience w/ the M9, including training military personnel over the last few years in its use...

...Poorly trained troops who use it then blame anything that goes wrong on the weapon. I've spent a number of years training military personnel how to shoot. You'd be appalled at their unbelievable lack of handgun skills...

It calls for a .45, which I personally think is a huge mistake b/c they are hoping for the magic bullet solution for what remains, in my mind, a training issue. Army people can't shoot a 9mm Beretta now, they won't be able to effectively shoot a .45..."

February 1st, 2006, 12:15 PM	#45
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,856	Somebody was asking if this was true or speculation. Check THIS out: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htw.../20060127.aspx Here is the text: U.S. Brings Back the .45 January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches. The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

February 1st, 2006, 01:07 PM	#47
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	A Parable My father was by trade an electrical engineer. One day, when I was about 9 I think, he had a crew foreman come into his office and describe a load that they were going to be running off of one of his power lines. He listened carefully and said to foreman. "Well, it sounds to me like you've already got it figured out." The crewman shook his head and explained his conundrum. "But I don't know if I should use the smaller cable or the larger cable. I think the smaller one should do it, but they might need the larger one." My father looked back at him and simply said this: "Then use the larger one since we can be more certain it'll do the job. Let's do it right the first time." Now I don't know if the dialog went like that exactly, but that's the gist of it. At this point the crew foreman was perplexed and slightly upset and my dad asked him why. And he said where are the tests, the equations, the printouts? Where are the charts and graphs and notes and spec sheets of these products? Why aren't you doing more work than this to make this decision rather than just saying use the bigger cable and be done with it? My dad looked back at him and said the same thing again. "Because I know with more certainty the bigger cable will handle the load better." (FYI I've been carrying a 9mm pistol while waiting for my holsters to show up... but FWIW...) __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

February 1st, 2006, 01:19 PM	#49
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,856	This was just posted on the board of my IDPA club in discussing this same topic. I found it interesting enough to cut and paste it here. __________________________________________________ This was to be expected - Yes troops are going to complain about "stopping" power - The problem is (and now that I've been shooting w/the club I've become really aware of this) is that they are not addressing the issue of basic marksmanship - Many Soldiers just like many lay civilians are under the impression that there does exist a magic bullet that will take care of all their problems - That if you hit someone in the shoulder this "magic" bullet will put them down for good...Let me share with you how they aka we come to this conclusion: 1-Military qualification (US Army) I can't talk about the other services - Are designed to shot from 25meters out to 300 meters - on hydraulically operated targets - Now if you can even SEE the 300 target and hit it on the upper shoulder it will go down immediately - Thus considered a "kill" The same goes for the 25 meter target. You never really go down range to check up on your targets. 2-TV - People are accustomed (and soldiers as well) to seeing people dropped dead in their tracks by that one magical bullet - Rarely do you ever see in a movie someone perform a failure drill/Mozambique on someone. 3-Motivation - Why do they people believe that as the "good guy' that the bad guys should automatically fall down and play dead when they are shot? They are just as motivated to get us as we are to get them - So you shoot someone in the arm/shoulder/etc - If they are motivated, they'll just keep on coming - The same would be true if it were reverse. So you put these 3 factors together, and you have a whole slew of people believing that there is a "magic" bullet aka .45 calibre that can do the job - I bet in NONE of those reports will they ever mention shot placement, failure drills, shooting them until they are no longer a threat, bill drills,etc.... I'll even throw this one out - People in the Spec Ops (SOCOM) community who really want to hone their skills, actually join local IDPA clubs to increase their weapon/marksmanship proficiency and LEARN. If any one of these Spec Ops operators is honest with you, he will also tell you that the average IDPA shooter, will give him a run for his money. If you don't believe me, ask any of the members who's been to a regional match, that had in attendance Soldiers from any of the SF groups - Humbling experience to say the least. I bet rifle/pistol marksmanship scores won't go up one bit. _______________________________________________ ExSoldier, again: As I said: Perception is everything. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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January 31st, 2006, 06:03 PM	#41
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Gone from Here Posts: 17,375	ill throw gas on the fire ..lol Ill still take a 45 and be happy with it and a 9mm also .. I know my shooting is good Do i feel as confident with the 9 as i would a 45 no but thats why my 9 carries 18 rounds 8 of 45 is good 16 10mm is better .. Got to rember no matter what you do you cant convince someone who is set against the ideal a lesser caliber 9mm in this matter is good .. Ive read tons about it saying how great it is blah blah blah ... But i still cant bring myself to totally trust it .. 8 rounds of 45 never broke a sweat was sure it would do the just just wanted more rounds... No one will convince me or probley Ex for that matter 9mm is better for what its worth in all the written stuff youll find 357 Magnum is still one of the highest rated cartridges..

February 1st, 2006, 08:37 AM	#44
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	When I look at a 9mm round next to a .45 round, to me it's a no-brainer -- that big ole .45 ought to be clearly superior in man stopping power. But when it comes to the real world, for some reason that huge difference in cartridge size doesn't show up in performance. To wit, as a challenge to all of us, let's try to come up with some documented evidence that ANY round of 9mm, .357 sig, .40 cal., .357 mag and .45 has been proven conclusively better than the other. Why do you suppose the 9mm/.45 discussions never end? Because nobody has been able to prove consistent superiority of one bullet over another. If they did, this discussion would be over at that point. It is significant that no one can produce a study that shows a .45 is truly superior to a 9mm. In fact, in one study that Ernst Langdon was involved with while training at Quantico, they found the 9mm actually had some edge over the .45. When I talked to Ernst about caliber and I made the comment that it seems like I should be carrying my Sig 220 instead of my Sig 226, he disagreed, based on studies he has been involved with. He's one reason I carry a 9mm. As for the military, based on my contacts with soldiers, reading comments from soldiers who have actually been there, the Beretta is a fine gun that got a bad name from inferior magazines. A seargent leading a squad of five in Iraq wrote me and said their guns weren't feeding correctly after the first few shots, what can they do? I contacted Wolff Gunsprings and talked to them about mag springs. They immediately confirmed that the magazines were the problem and said that they had already sent 200 of their +10% springs (no charge) to Iraq. They sent me, no charge, ten +10% springs so I could send them to the squad in Iraq. The non-Beretta magazine (low bid) is so bad that the +10% springs only help, but doesn't fix the problem. I am unaware of ANY reliability problems with the Beretta pistol using Beretta mags. As for the troop claiming the 9mm doesn't have the same stopping power, who said it? How many rounds did they fire? How many were significant hits? How did they determine that a .45 under the exact same conditions would have performed better? Actually, I think what the real issue is, is that they they get little handgun training and hence they shoot handguns poorly which undoubtedly would lead to the conclusion that the problem is a gun or ammo problem. I would seriously doubt if the same guys used a .45 they would have significantly better results. Then look at the Texas LEO experience. When they gave up their .45s for .357 Sig, their qualifying scores went way up. The Tennessee Highway Patrol just upgraded their 9mms to .357 sigs. They could have gone to .45, why didn't they? The Air Marshalls chose the .357 sig over the .45, why? SEALs use 9mm, again why? These discussions only exist because of the lack of evidence that one round is superior to another. Once again, if you know of any specific body of evidence that you can present, I'd love to see it.

February 1st, 2006, 01:14 PM	#48
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	Two watermelon farmers were driving their crop to market and one said to the other, "I just figured our costs and selling price and we're not making any money." The other says, "What do you think we need to do?" He thought for a moment and replied, "We need to get a bigger truck." If it isn't a caliber problem, changing calibers won't help. I talked to a guy that's been there and done that for many years and trained troops. He says that for the most part if the soldier understands how the gun works and can make it shoot, that's his training. The soldiers I took shooting say the same thing. Then there remains the issue that when Texas LE went from the .45 to the .357 sig, there qualification scores went up dramatically and I've heard little if any complaint about stopping power. This won't seem right, but I'm not real confident the "military" knows what works. They went from the .45 to the 9mm to the .45; from the 30-06 to the .308 to the .223 and now they don't seem to know what to use. OTOH, the FBI has done extensive testing and I'm not sure they know what works. They first adopted the 10mm, and that didn't work out so they went to the .40 cal. in Glock and I think Sig except for the HRTs that went to 1911 in .45. If there was a definitive advantage, seems like with all this testing, we ought to know what it is by now. Probably the most dominate round in LE is the .40 cal.

February 1st, 2006, 01:26 PM	#50
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 6,611	Euc, I understand, but we don't know that the bigger is better when it's between the 9mm and .45ACP; if so, when did we find out? Ex, A follow-up on your posts; this is NOT me: "I've got 18+ years of service in the Army and experience w/ the M9, including training military personnel over the last few years in its use... ...Poorly trained troops who use it then blame anything that goes wrong on the weapon. I've spent a number of years training military personnel how to shoot. You'd be appalled at their unbelievable lack of handgun skills... It calls for a .45, which I personally think is a huge mistake b/c they are hoping for the magic bullet solution for what remains, in my mind, a training issue. Army people can't shoot a 9mm Beretta now, they won't be able to effectively shoot a .45..."