ckd

Stand and fight may = die; Move and fight = live. The problem with only square range training is people are more likely to stand and shoot - ingrained training. As pointed out, any ambush lowers your odds, but being vigilant and having a plan of movement is vital, even in a vehicle.

jwsnydes

As a practitioner of Escrima/Kali (Filipino edged weapon martial arts) i can tell you that, a knife can be as deadly as a gun in practiced hands. It is more discrete and quieter along with faster in most cases, obviously lacking in range. (i.e. <21 foot rule).

That said; most people make a primary simple baseball bat swing with a knife, easy to side step easy to block. It is obviously not nearly as easy to dodge bullets.

Time and distance. Back pedal, buy time, shoot. That is the way to defeat a knife.

-John

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inferno3

I agree with you to a degree on the back pedal,buy time ,shoot.

However,I would disagree that most people would make baseball bat swings if untrained with a knife. With a boxcutter you are absoutely right. The untrained person with deadly intentions will be stabing or attempting to stab you repeatedly.

I would use the analogy of "keeping the person too close or too far". Either clinching close greco,where most of my vital organs are covered up, or scrambling away out of reach. Either way until you can draw and fire.

jwsnydes

I can promise you that the baseball primary is fact, a straight stab being a close second. A straight stab is very hard to deliver effectively to a moving target. Either way, MOVE!

Just a P.S. never EVER clinch a person with a knife, it is too hard to isolate the weapon. Trust me on this one, with hundreds of hours of sparing I can't do it reliably. Use your ranged weapon at range.

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KevinInstructor

Something people do not consider enough, the bad guy looks wise like any other person and not in clothing which spells “bad guy.” With that thought Mr. bad guy can approach to arms length distance and cut the snot out of his intended prey and their weapon of choice is only felt, not seen. This to me is troublesome because there is truly no defense against this form of attack unless you are always questioning the intent of every single person who you come in contact with.

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limatunes

One final thing to consider in this video. It proves the effectiveness of an edged weapon at close ranges.

We all know this.

Everyone preaches that distance is the key.

I'm sorry, but no one can keep a 21 foot radius around them.

Next time you are in line at a fast food restaurant or at a gas station, take a look at how close the person in line behind you will get to you. Take a look at how close you have gotten to the person in front of you. Next time you sit down to eat at a dinner, take a look at how close the next table is or how closely someone has to walk to your table to get to their own. Take a look at how close your waiter or waitress gets. When you're at the grocery store, take a look at how close people get to you when you are passing one another in the aisles. Take a look at how close you get when you are checking out at the cash-register. When you had the cashier the money, whella, you are now within about two feet of one another. Even when running or walking on a trail, if someone passes you from the other direction, chances are they are within 4-5, if not even closer, feet.

No matter how careful one is he can never keep an effective 21-foot radius of personal space around him and most knife-wielding idiots are idiotic enough to attack from that distance. They are going to get as close as possible before they attack, it gives them the element of surprise and also provides that less witnesses see them brandishing a knife or even what they've done.

My point here is that he key is NOT distance.. That's impossible. People are going to get close to you whether you like it or not and nothing is going to change that short of either screaming at everyone who gets within 21 feet (which will get you in more trouble than it's worth) or never going outside again, for the rest of your life.

The key is not distance, it's vigilance, and MOVING.

In this video, the police officers stood stock still while the attacker approached. They tried to draw their gun ONLY which was the paramount mistake. Any one of them who tried to move AND draw at the same time would have upped their chances of success by at least 50%.

Even if it was a simple side step to the left or right, or maybe even a couple steps back and to the side while drawing, I think one would see a steady increase in the success of a clear presentation of the gun and shots being able to be fired.

But also remember that these police officers were prepared for the advance. Were they not prepared they would have lost at least a half a second figuring out what is happening. And if they aren't paying attention, that would be even worse.

It's not distance so much (as far as I reason it out) it's staying alert and MOVING when you need to.

But that's just Lima theory.

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Limatunes' Range Diaries

lucky strike

I think what everyone should gather from that video is to practice drawing while circling out (backpedaling diagonally to either side)

That and a swift kick to the groin or push kick (if you're trained) to the gut/chest seems pretty effective if someone is rushing you.

AzQkr

Lets face it, most everyone would be cut, even if they moved at the initial start of the attack here. It's not movement that will keep you from being cut, but when you move.

Move too soon, he tracks onto you and still cuts you. You'll have to time the movement making it so that he has already comitted and has gained enough speed to make it difficult for him to track onto you. At the distances used in the vids, that timing of the movement is split second correct, or you are cut regardless.

Those three scenarios are not actually gun solutions. Gun centric thinking make them gun solutions. You'll need both hands/arms and a lot of training to even keep from taking body core shots which will likely leave you with lethal wounds.

As ccw carriers, limatunes brings up valid observations that we all place ourselves in, by necessity, that range and closer daily to people and are constantly vulnerable to attacks that we just would not be able to effectively react to or likely survive.

I observe our sales people continuously hand someone a folder or straight blade from across the counter and stand right along the glass while the customer is up against their side only 18" from each other after the salesperson has handed an unknown person [ to them ], a lethal weapon. Worse, they are looking around at distractions of other customers, who's walking in the door, whatever and are not even aware of the potential danger to themselves in a heartbeat.

When I have to hand someone a blade at the counter, I place the knife on the matt on the counter, I back up so that person can't just reach out and cut me, and have them put the knife down on the counter before I reenter that "zone" where I can be touched by the knife.

Very few will survive the vid encounters IMO. The ones who have the best chance of escaping with their life are the ones who pocket carry, can get their hand on the gun once they recognize a potential problem, have enough awareness and forethought to determine something may be wrong here, and couple all of that with being ready to move and shoot at the same time.

Even then, it will be a crap shoot [ pun intended ].

Backpedaling is a bad idea in any SD scenario. The worst choice IMO. You can't create enough distance doing so to make a difference.

Brownie

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bzdog

Isn't that the rule of the knife fight? (you are going to get cut.)

I think another thing to keep in mind when considering these things is that 'cut/stabbed' doesn't necessarily mean 'dead'.

I've heard (and it makes sense) that knives ~3" and under can't easily reach vital organs. Look at all the reports of people who are stabbed multiple times and still function and then live. Main issue is blood loss.

We talk about the ineffectiveness of handguns, and I think this applies here as well.

And as stated before, there is a fair chance that the person attacking you (knife or gun) isn't necessarily going to know what they are doing.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about this. I'm sure being cut/stabbed/shot is a brutal business. But I also think we should remember that just because we are shot or stabbed doesn't mean we are finished if we staying focused.

-john

firefighter4884

bzdog,

I think your comment about the length of the blade is a little off....

There are plenty of targets that will kill you dead that are a lot less then 3" under your skin.

Arteries & Veins in your neck, thigh and upper arms to start. Your lungs aren't that deep in your chest, nor is your heart (although the breast bone makes it harder to get at)...there are a few others...

as an example, an injury to the femoral artery (that big huge pipe that runs down each leg...the wound in Black Hawk Down) can cost you more then a liter of blood (someone else in EMS back me up on this, or change the number for me!) without showing any signs of swelling!

Just an FYI.

--Jim

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