Knife vs Gun - Page 3

AzQkr · September 28th, 2007, 10:14 PM

3" of penetration in the wrong area will puncture a lung, reach the heart, major arteries, kidneys, etc pretty easily on all but the biggest [ to mean fattest ] of individuals.

You can certainly live if stabbed, but you want to protect your bodies core as much as possible in an attack. Some won't realize and haven't realized they've been stabbed in the heat of battle until later, then died or lived, it's a crap shoot to be sure.

A knife wielding aggressor doesn't have to know what he is doing to kill you, he only has to connect with the blade in the right places and you are in a world of hurt, either immediately or later.

Doesn't matter if you live long enough to win the battle, you can lose the war hours or days later from the damage incurred before you came out on top at the scene at that moment.

Not something to look forward to at the least of it, to be sure. You better have some very good H2H skills. I train others in unarmed against a knife, and you better protect the bodies core from penetration at all costs.

My own collapsing startle response does just that. To read more on that you can look here:
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=172

Brownie

AzQkr · September 28th, 2007, 10:18 PM

firefighter4884;

We posted almost at the same time with the same ideas on this subject of the length of the blade.

Femoral artery being severed, not just nicked? Better be on the operating table when it happens, the chance of surviving that one is slim and none on the streets.

One of the cops I worked with back east shot and severed his while seated and cleaning a gun. He had just enough time to get a belt around it and tightened before he passed out. He lived, but barely made it.

Good post sir

Brownie

SIXTO · September 29th, 2007, 12:37 AM

Far to many people underestimate knives. They always have scared me more than guns.
I'm trying to beat into the guys at work (police dept) heads that they need to respond with lethal force when threatened with a knife. I dont know why, but many of them want to use less lethal techniques.

firefighter4884 · September 29th, 2007, 03:09 AM

Brownie,

Yeah... I was talking about a nick, or a small lac in the femoral artery... we worry about it in EMS as a result of a femur fracture... (in NJ a bilateral femur fracture automatically buys you a ride to a trauma center...although in practice, usually a single femur fracture does that all on it's own [it takes way lots of force to break that bone!]). In the case of a fracture, we worry that part of the bone nicked the artery, and you're bleeding out, and we can't tell... which is way bad too!.

Sixto, are there department regs that you have to worry about too? I mean... as a civilian, part of me likes the idea of doing minimal damage whenever possible... but... as a realist, and someone who's worked with less then cooperative patients in my ambulance... I fully realize that the first priority is that you go home at the end of the day!

--Jim

frankborelli · September 29th, 2007, 10:58 AM

What an interesting post. Let me weigh in with my two cents worth (that may not be worth even that):

As a folding knife instructor for PDs I've always encouraged officers to carry weapons with a 2" blade. It's PLENTY long enough to do fatal damage if you know the targets to attack.

If the attacker is at arm's reach already, then you are doing nothing but giving him advantage if you waste time trying to draw your weapon.

There's no way you can go backward as fast as he can go forward so backing up ain't going to work.

As someone posted previously, EVERYONE gets cut in a knife fight. Not all cuts are fatal and I've seen some truly carved up people live because it was all soft tissue - not organ or arterial - damage.

MENTAL REHEARSAL works. This type of event HAS to be considered, planned and trained for. Someone else earlier on said that if you don't have empty hand tactics in your tool box you're behind the curve. +10 on that.

Gravity beats everyone in a fight. Learn to get them off-balance and attack all you can from leg's length rather than closing distance if possible.

SHOW NO MERCY. While fear may slow everyone down, fear of litigation makes the mind go in circles that it never (or rarely) comes out of. Someone attacking you with a knife leaves you EVERY force option. What CAN'T you do? NOTHING. Crippling, blinding, maming, killing... these are all acceptable results from your defense to a knife attack.

Ultimately, though, if you haven't considered the possibility you will most likely freeze up when it occurs.

ExSoldier · September 29th, 2007, 06:56 PM

Frank, check your PM's. I just sent you an important message.

KevinInstructor · September 29th, 2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankborelli

Gravity beats everyone in a fight. Learn to get them off-balance and attack all you can from leg's length rather than closing distance if possible.

SHOW NO MERCY. While fear may slow everyone down, fear of litigation makes the mind go in circles that it never (or rarely) comes out of. Someone attacking you with a knife leaves you EVERY force option. What CAN'T you do? NOTHING. Crippling, blinding, maming, killing... these are all acceptable results from your defense to a knife attack.

Ultimately, though, if you haven't considered the possibility you will most likely freeze up when it occurs.

I am a firm believer in always looking to take them to the ground (and not me) along with incapacitating their mobility so they can not continue their attack.

+10 on the thoughts on slowing down because of litigation. Most people who are attacked rarely think of this aspect of an encounter which may very well lead to defeat.

Sam Douthit · September 29th, 2007, 08:23 PM

I have been knifed three times and neither time did I realize the bad guy had a knife. My training as a boxer was my salvation. If you punch a heavy bag a lot you develop a punch and an automatic reflex from sparing and fighting that makes you respond without thinking. A good hard punch to a vital area is a way to buy time to draw the gun. I would advise that in the video that the gun wielder not attempt to draw until he assumed a defensive stance to avoid the knife and then go to the gun. Fighting to defend yourself is a multiple skill and some martial arts is more than helpful. Just punching holes in cardboard at 25 yards is not the answer to survival. I grew up fist fighting as all kids of my era (30s and 40s) I am too weak to fight and too slow to run at 75 but I still think I have an instinct to surrivive.

bzdog · September 29th, 2007, 09:54 PM

I didn't mean to suggest that you were not in a lethal struggle. It just seemed to me that the reaction is that after the knife wielder reached the defender, people seemed to react like "it's all over, you are dead". I just wanted to suggest that you plan beyond that point.

-john

tns0038 · October 19th, 2007, 03:17 PM

While this demonstration has it’s draw backs, I have always felt that when dealing with a BG at close quarters the “out of no ware switchblade knife”, is more of threat than a concealed firearm.

September 28th, 2007, 10:14 PM	#21
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,451	3" of penetration in the wrong area will puncture a lung, reach the heart, major arteries, kidneys, etc pretty easily on all but the biggest [ to mean fattest ] of individuals. You can certainly live if stabbed, but you want to protect your bodies core as much as possible in an attack. Some won't realize and haven't realized they've been stabbed in the heat of battle until later, then died or lived, it's a crap shoot to be sure. A knife wielding aggressor doesn't have to know what he is doing to kill you, he only has to connect with the blade in the right places and you are in a world of hurt, either immediately or later. Doesn't matter if you live long enough to win the battle, you can lose the war hours or days later from the damage incurred before you came out on top at the scene at that moment. Not something to look forward to at the least of it, to be sure. You better have some very good H2H skills. I train others in unarmed against a knife, and you better protect the bodies core from penetration at all costs. My own collapsing startle response does just that. To read more on that you can look here: http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=172 Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

September 28th, 2007, 10:18 PM	#22
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,451	firefighter4884; We posted almost at the same time with the same ideas on this subject of the length of the blade. Femoral artery being severed, not just nicked? Better be on the operating table when it happens, the chance of surviving that one is slim and none on the streets. One of the cops I worked with back east shot and severed his while seated and cleaning a gun. He had just enough time to get a belt around it and tightened before he passed out. He lived, but barely made it. Good post sir Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

September 29th, 2007, 12:37 AM	#23
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Here and There Posts: 10,087	Far to many people underestimate knives. They always have scared me more than guns. I'm trying to beat into the guys at work (police dept) heads that they need to respond with lethal force when threatened with a knife. I dont know why, but many of them want to use less lethal techniques. __________________ In a land of sheep, even a toothless wolf is king. Wake Up! The zombie invasion has begun years ago.

September 29th, 2007, 03:09 AM	#24
firefighter4884 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wadesville, IN Posts: 639	Brownie, Yeah... I was talking about a nick, or a small lac in the femoral artery... we worry about it in EMS as a result of a femur fracture... (in NJ a bilateral femur fracture automatically buys you a ride to a trauma center...although in practice, usually a single femur fracture does that all on it's own [it takes way lots of force to break that bone!]). In the case of a fracture, we worry that part of the bone nicked the artery, and you're bleeding out, and we can't tell... which is way bad too!. Sixto, are there department regs that you have to worry about too? I mean... as a civilian, part of me likes the idea of doing minimal damage whenever possible... but... as a realist, and someone who's worked with less then cooperative patients in my ambulance... I fully realize that the first priority is that you go home at the end of the day! --Jim __________________ Firefighter / EMT - Always Ready. Ever Willing. ~Never do anything that you don't want to have to explain to the paramedics...~

September 29th, 2007, 10:58 AM	#25
frankborelli Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 86	What an interesting post. Let me weigh in with my two cents worth (that may not be worth even that): As a folding knife instructor for PDs I've always encouraged officers to carry weapons with a 2" blade. It's PLENTY long enough to do fatal damage if you know the targets to attack. If the attacker is at arm's reach already, then you are doing nothing but giving him advantage if you waste time trying to draw your weapon. There's no way you can go backward as fast as he can go forward so backing up ain't going to work. As someone posted previously, EVERYONE gets cut in a knife fight. Not all cuts are fatal and I've seen some truly carved up people live because it was all soft tissue - not organ or arterial - damage. MENTAL REHEARSAL works. This type of event HAS to be considered, planned and trained for. Someone else earlier on said that if you don't have empty hand tactics in your tool box you're behind the curve. +10 on that. Gravity beats everyone in a fight. Learn to get them off-balance and attack all you can from leg's length rather than closing distance if possible. SHOW NO MERCY. While fear may slow everyone down, fear of litigation makes the mind go in circles that it never (or rarely) comes out of. Someone attacking you with a knife leaves you EVERY force option. What CAN'T you do? NOTHING. Crippling, blinding, maming, killing... these are all acceptable results from your defense to a knife attack. Ultimately, though, if you haven't considered the possibility you will most likely freeze up when it occurs. __________________ Frank Borelli www.newamericantruth.com "Cogito, ergo armatum sum" I think, therefore I am armed.

September 29th, 2007, 06:56 PM	#26
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,209	Frank, check your PM's. I just sent you an important message. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

September 29th, 2007, 08:23 PM	#28
Sam Douthit Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bowdon, GA Posts: 181	I have been knifed three times and neither time did I realize the bad guy had a knife. My training as a boxer was my salvation. If you punch a heavy bag a lot you develop a punch and an automatic reflex from sparing and fighting that makes you respond without thinking. A good hard punch to a vital area is a way to buy time to draw the gun. I would advise that in the video that the gun wielder not attempt to draw until he assumed a defensive stance to avoid the knife and then go to the gun. Fighting to defend yourself is a multiple skill and some martial arts is more than helpful. Just punching holes in cardboard at 25 yards is not the answer to survival. I grew up fist fighting as all kids of my era (30s and 40s) I am too weak to fight and too slow to run at 75 but I still think I have an instinct to surrivive. __________________ Sambo74 SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM Last edited by Sam Douthit; September 29th, 2007 at 08:26 PM. Reason: spelling

September 29th, 2007, 09:54 PM	#29
bzdog Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle(ish), WA Posts: 453	I didn't mean to suggest that you were not in a lethal struggle. It just seemed to me that the reaction is that after the knife wielder reached the defender, people seemed to react like "it's all over, you are dead". I just wanted to suggest that you plan beyond that point. -john

October 19th, 2007, 03:17 PM	#30
tns0038 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,177	While this demonstration has it’s draw backs, I have always felt that when dealing with a BG at close quarters the “out of no ware switchblade knife”, is more of threat than a concealed firearm.

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