Knife vs Gun - Page 4

Brian@ITC · October 26th, 2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

A knife wielding aggressor doesn't have to know what he is doing to kill you, he only has to connect with the blade in the right places and you are in a world of hurt, either immediately or later.

Doesn't matter if you live long enough to win the battle, you can lose the war hours or days later from the damage incurred before you came out on top at the scene at that moment.

Not something to look forward to at the least of it, to be sure. You better have some very good H2H skills. I train others in unarmed against a knife, and you better protect the bodies core from penetration at all costs.

Good stuff Brownie!

The attacker holding his knife behind his back only demonstrates the fact that you will not always see the attack coming. The officer could have just arrived on the scene and the assailant had their hands behind their back and the attacker attacks without warning.

Actually, I think that the attacker was a bit on the slow side when delivering his attacks in this video. We are actually in the process of working a similar illustration in our next video using a timeline demonstrating various directions of movements in response to a knife attack or an attacker who is has you at gunpoint. However, we do have a short video clip illustrating the same point, in that you are probably not going to have time to draw your gun. I am simply standing there with a knife (I am working on one where you don’t see the knife because people have been saying that when they see the knife they would draw) and I attack at various intervals. Point being, you won’t always see the attack coming, and that you probably won’t have time to even THINK about drawing your gun!!! You can check out our little clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIp-LIV1xNI I am cutting a PVC pipe in order for you to be able to see that I am actually cutting something and not just the air which could be argued that I am not actually covering the entire distance.

Now, the point of our clip is that the gun is NOT the solution! However, a lot of people who carry guns concealed legally believe their gun is the solution. I do not feel that most firearms training prepares people for situations such as this. How could firearms training prepare you when drawing your gun is not the answer?! Unfortunately, a lot of firearms instructors do not show you this part of the training because they don’t possess the ability to deal with this situation without a gun. I feel in a sense they are cheating you out of very valuable information that you need to know about a confrontation. That is, going straight for your gun is probably not going to keep you alive in a confrontation. And, that going for your gun may very well not be an option for you in a confrontation.

In all honesty your only chance of surviving the situation is responding FIRST with unarmed combatives and then possibly draw your gun. You must know the attacker’s cues, because if you notice them, it can mean the difference between life and death.

Now, backpedaling can be a good thing if you move back at 45 degrees at the right time. Moving straight back does create distance, but it just doesn’t get you off the line of attack. Moving laterally does not get you off the line of attack quickly enough and create enough distance quickly to be safe as does moving back at 45 degrees.

You ARE going to get cut! You have to understand that no matter how good you are, that you are going to get cut but you must keep going in the fight in order to survive!

KevinInstructor · October 27th, 2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian@ITC

You can check out our little clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIp-LIV1xNI I am cutting a PVC pipe in order for you to be able to see that I am actually cutting something and not just the air which could be argued that I am not actually covering the entire distance.

Now, the point of our clip is that the gun is NOT the solution! However, a lot of people who carry guns concealed legally believe their gun is the solution. I do not feel that most firearms training prepares people for situations such as this. How could firearms training prepare you when drawing your gun is not the answer?! Unfortunately, a lot of firearms instructors do not show you this part of the training because they don’t possess the ability to deal with this situation without a gun. I feel in a sense they are cheating you out of very valuable information that you need to know about a confrontation. That is, going straight for your gun is probably not going to keep you alive in a confrontation. And, that going for your gun may very well not be an option for you in a confrontation.

In all honesty your only chance of surviving the situation is responding FIRST with unarmed combatives and then possibly draw your gun. You must know the attacker’s cues, because if you notice them, it can mean the difference between life and death.

Now, backpedaling can be a good thing if you move back at 45 degrees at the right time. Moving straight back does create distance, but it just doesn’t get you off the line of attack. Moving laterally does not get you off the line of attack quickly enough and create enough distance quickly to be safe as does moving back at 45 degrees.

You ARE going to get cut! You have to understand that no matter how good you are, that you are going to get cut but you must keep going in the fight in order to survive!

Thanks for sharing the video!

I agree with you somewhat on the issue that instructors do not teach how to deal with these type of situations. Our group focuses on progressive skills meaning, learn the fundamentals of shooting (stance, trigger control, sight picture etc) then progress to more advance skills such as drawing from holster, speed reloads and reactionary shooting on the move. In these two levels we throw enough at the student that conceptually they realize that living in condition yellow is important but do not focus on actually dealing with close quarter attacks. Instead we offer a knife counter knife class were you might get to play with a training gun to show the points you are making in your clip.

My belief is (as mentioned above) to live in condition yellow and then hopefully will know when an attack might be coming to be prepared. Of course you and I know this can not always be the case but best to play the odds.

Any ways I think it’s important if you are a firearm instructor to a) incorporate the training into your course line up or b) offer an additional class which focuses on close quarter attacks. While on this thought I feel that handgun disarming and retention should also be taught. Coupling these together gives one a good toolbox of defensive skills. But from teaching these skills for the past 8 years I know that most students truly believe that a beginner class is all they need. My mentor has been teaching since (roughly) 1960 and time after time has found this to be very true, 95% of students feel the firearm at the basic level is all they need to have so that they are safe. I am being generous now that I think of it with 95%, more like 98% feel they can draw and fire on any knife attack and vaporize Mr./Mrs. Scumbag.

I think this video you shared should be passed around to as many people as possible to show them reality that gets even worst with a night time attack.

Brian@ITC · October 27th, 2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

But from teaching these skills for the past 8 years I know that most students truly believe that a beginner class is all they need. My mentor has been teaching since (roughly) 1960 and time after time has found this to be very true, 95% of students feel the firearm at the basic level is all they need to have so that they are safe. I am being generous now that I think of it with 95%, more like 98% feel they can draw and fire on any knife attack and vaporize Mr./Mrs. Scumbag.

Kevin,

I know that you are pretty much on the money about people not thinking that they need more training or any training. A lot of people in our Ohio CCW courses tend to think that is all they need. We ALWAYS tell them that if they THINK they are ready for a life threatening situation after they leave here and get their permit, well, they are sadly mistaken!

I too had this misconception even years after carrying concealed. And, I have been active a number of years (A LOT!) in a combat martial arts system. The more I train and take the time to TRULY examine the FIGHT aspect of things, I realize what CAN AND CANNOT be done REALISTICALLY. Not what someone "says" can be done, but what can actually be accomplished and what is bull!!!

Please, feel free to pass the video around as much as all of you want! We are constantly talking to people who THINK that their skills are far better than what they actually are. So, this is something that SHOULD humble most of us. Especially those who RELY on their gun to resolve the situation.

To take it one more step, if you were to try and execute some of the common two handed shooting stances at 10 feet or less, you are VERY likely to be cut up on BOTH arms and not able to operate your gun!!! This is what some of our research has been showing us when we review it.

We teach unarmed combatives integrated with drawing your gun IF that is the thing to do. Which is the way it should be done in my humble opinion. That is what our close quarters combatives advanced pistol fighting course is all about.

I agree with the night time thing! We are working on that as well in this next video if time permits. People, things get REALLY ugly the more you get into the REALITY of things. And then to ad the overall sensory impairment that takes place in lowlighting conditions... you had better have a MUCH better plan than drawing your gun! Because if that is all you have, then you are probably going to get seriously injured or even killed!!!

For all of you who THINK that you can survive a situation, a real life situation, PLEASE take a look at this video. This is just how fast stuff can REALLY go down. The question is... Will YOU survive with or without any prior (traditional) firearms training?

KevinInstructor · October 27th, 2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian@ITC

Kevin,

I know that you are pretty much on the money about people not thinking that they need more training or any training. A lot of people in our Ohio CCW courses tend to think that is all they need. We ALWAYS tell them that if they THINK they are ready for a life threatening situation after they leave here and get their permit, well, they are sadly mistaken!

I too had this misconception even years after carrying concealed. And, I have been active a number of years (A LOT!) in a combat martial arts system. The more I train and take the time to TRULY examine the FIGHT aspect of things, I realize what CAN AND CANNOT be done REALISTICALLY. Not what someone "says" can be done, but what can actually be accomplished and what is bull!!!

Please, feel free to pass the video around as much as all of you want! We are constantly talking to people who THINK that their skills are far better than what they actually are. So, this is something that SHOULD humble most of us. Especially those who RELY on their gun to resolve the situation.

To take it one more step, if you were to try and execute some of the common two handed shooting stances at 10 feet or less, you are VERY likely to be cut up on BOTH arms and not able to operate your gun!!! This is what some of our research has been showing us when we review it.

We teach unarmed combatives integrated with drawing your gun IF that is the thing to do. Which is the way it should be done in my humble opinion. That is what our close quarters combatives advanced pistol fighting course is all about.

I agree with the night time thing! We are working on that as well in this next video if time permits. People, things get REALLY ugly the more you get into the REALITY of things. And then to ad the overall sensory impairment that takes place in lowlighting conditions... you had better have a MUCH better plan than drawing your gun! Because if that is all you have, then you are probably going to get seriously injured or even killed!!!

For all of you who THINK that you can survive a situation, a real life situation, PLEASE take a look at this video. This is just how fast stuff can REALLY go down. The question is... Will YOU survive with or without any prior (traditional) firearms training?

We simulated an attack which as you know can not be fully simulated if a) you know the attack is coming and it is coming from 21’ which is bogus beings that in the majority of cases the attack comes at arms length b) the attacker telegraphs the attack. In any event I played the good guy who as shown did not get my gun into a firing position and even if I did more likely then not would have been cut.

On a side note, I visited your site and can see your group has great classes for your clientele. There are not many group sites I have been to that offer a full array of tactics which include handgun retention/disarming.

Our site is http://www.jimjacobe.com

AzQkr · October 28th, 2007, 12:27 AM

Brian,

The video should be quite clear for everyone to understand that the gun is not the correct solution to a H2H problem based on time and distances.

ITFTS also offers the H2H, stick, defensive knife [ unarmed against a knifeer ], and pistol/revolver disarms. Some of the H2H has been incorporated into the defensive knife as it melds extemely well with the blade skills as I've picked up from Keating and Janich over the years.

Keep putting vids like this up and people will eventually understand there's a time and place to everything, and no one tool is going to be the best solution to problems presented on the streets in the real world.

9 years of blade training, 3 years of training for the S+W Academy as their adjunct defensive edged weapons instructor --- and at 5 and 7 feet, I won't think about going for a tool in that scenario, it's got to be "protect the core" and try to create time and distance to get to a tool with well practiced H2H/defensive knife skills, or---------------

YOU LOSE.

Brownie

Brian@ITC · October 28th, 2007, 10:57 AM

Brownie (and all readers), I can only HOPE that people get the message but some people don't really get it unless they experience it. Which is what we encourage it in a TRAINING environment and NOT when it is too late such as in a life threatening situation. People who have trained REALISTICALY are the ones who are most likely to realize what real dangers exists in a fight.

We will always try to get people to realize the truth about their training and WHY it is important to not limit yourself to rely on one tool. No, there is not one tool that the is answer for everything! The answer is to train for as much as you possibly can and don't put all of your eggs in one basket which is what a lot of firearms students do. Just because you shoot someone does not mean they will fall down!!! In fact, I think that it is somewhat rare that when you shoot someone they are going to just fall down and die.

I would say that mindset is most important because regardless of your skillset, if you don't have the mindset to keep going NO MATTER WHAT, then nothing else matters!!!

Quote:

at 5 and 7 feet, I won't think about going for a tool in that scenario, it's got to be "protect the core" and try to create time and distance to get to a tool with well practiced H2H/defensive knife skills, or---------------

YOU LOSE.

I HOPE that people TRULY understand this!!! Because it is THE TRUTH!!!!!!!

Brian@ITC · October 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM

Kevin,

I think the reason that a lot of groups don't have the variety is... because A LOT of instructors teach the "gun is the solution" and not from the "surviving" the fight perspective. There are many pieces of the puzzle that are not taught in a lot of firearms courses that students need to know. The lack of this knowledge get people killed. Also, you cannot teach what you don't know! If all you know is the gun is the solution, then that is what you are going to teach!!!

Guns are taught separately from the use of unarmed combatives. A gun is SIMPLY A TOOL!!! Using a gun should not be much different than using a knife, baton, or any other tool.

I went to your site very briefly. Looks good for students!

Supertac45 · November 12th, 2007, 12:26 PM

A knife is deadly in a lot more situations than most want to believe. It doesn't take much to open a person up in a hurry.

ExSoldier · November 12th, 2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supertac45

A knife is deadly in a lot more situations than most want to believe. It doesn't take much to open a person up in a hurry.

You're absolutely correct. But the blade lacks the shock power of the bullet. A really sharp blade won't even hurt too much as it does the job. Your opponent might be literally dead or dying on his feet and the level of "hydraulic failure" not yet reached the brain. Still he may be willing, able and ready to kill you.

Remember the advice about wanting to stay in the fight no matter what? That sadly applies to the predators as well. And most of the really bad actors know it.

KenpoTex · November 15th, 2007, 01:31 AM

but, but, but...they told me that "knives are for sissies," and "never bring a knife to a gunfight," and that [insert redneck accent] "all ya gotta do is haul out yer trusty .45 and ventilate the SOB."

all this stuff about integrated training...that sounds like work...I might actually have to sweat...I wouldn't have as much time to lust after all the toys in the latest gun-rag...

October 28th, 2007, 12:27 AM	#35
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,444	Brian, The video should be quite clear for everyone to understand that the gun is not the correct solution to a H2H problem based on time and distances. ITFTS also offers the H2H, stick, defensive knife [ unarmed against a knifeer ], and pistol/revolver disarms. Some of the H2H has been incorporated into the defensive knife as it melds extemely well with the blade skills as I've picked up from Keating and Janich over the years. Keep putting vids like this up and people will eventually understand there's a time and place to everything, and no one tool is going to be the best solution to problems presented on the streets in the real world. 9 years of blade training, 3 years of training for the S+W Academy as their adjunct defensive edged weapons instructor --- and at 5 and 7 feet, I won't think about going for a tool in that scenario, it's got to be "protect the core" and try to create time and distance to get to a tool with well practiced H2H/defensive knife skills, or--------------- YOU LOSE. Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php Last edited by AzQkr; October 28th, 2007 at 01:38 AM.

October 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM	#37
Brian@ITC Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Richmond, IN Posts: 103	Kevin, I think the reason that a lot of groups don't have the variety is... because A LOT of instructors teach the "gun is the solution" and not from the "surviving" the fight perspective. There are many pieces of the puzzle that are not taught in a lot of firearms courses that students need to know. The lack of this knowledge get people killed. Also, you cannot teach what you don't know! If all you know is the gun is the solution, then that is what you are going to teach!!! Guns are taught separately from the use of unarmed combatives. A gun is SIMPLY A TOOL!!! Using a gun should not be much different than using a knife, baton, or any other tool. I went to your site very briefly. Looks good for students! __________________ Brian K. LaMaster President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC Instructor, Counter Force International http://www.right2defend.com http://www.modernwarriortalk.com

November 12th, 2007, 12:26 PM	#38
Supertac45 VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Michigan's U.P. Posts: 2,962	A knife is deadly in a lot more situations than most want to believe. It doesn't take much to open a person up in a hurry. __________________ Les Baer 45 Sig Man N.R.A. Patron Life Member M.C.R.G.O.

November 15th, 2007, 01:31 AM	#40
KenpoTex Distinguished Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 1,771	but, but, but...they told me that "knives are for sissies," and "never bring a knife to a gunfight," and that [insert redneck accent] "all ya gotta do is haul out yer trusty .45 and ventilate the SOB." all this stuff about integrated training...that sounds like work...I might actually have to sweat...I wouldn't have as much time to lust after all the toys in the latest gun-rag... __________________ "There are no substitutes for violence of action and volume of fire..." ~Otto Skorzeny If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears. Matt K.

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