Rhode Island - Page 2

rogerswann · January 10th, 2008, 10:22 AM

The following quote is taken from line 8 of Non-Resident Application Instructions.

"The application states that first time applicants must submit a copy of a recent certificate showing completion of a basic firearm safety course given in their home state or in Massachusetts.This course must have been taken with an instructor who is certified by the Colonel of the Massachusetts State Police."

The bold faced sentence is bold faced in the application. This is the part that makes a non resident seek an instructor on the "list". It is kind of silly, because to become a "MA" certified instructor just entails filling out paperwork and providing your instructor credentials.
I requalify twice a year(federal) at a local Mass police department with their officers acting as range safety officers and this does not meet the firearms safety course, but I can go sit for 4 hours in a class run by someone who has jumped through the hoops to become a MA instructor and this qualifies. GO FIGURE!

LenS · January 10th, 2008, 11:48 PM

Roger, the forms do not always reflect "reality" of how any state agency operates.

I'll take GOAL's word on this as to what is currently done. MGL gives the Col of the MSP the authority to make the rules for NR LTCs . . . and this is indeed different from MGL wrt Resident LTCs.

Since the state does not release any list of MSP Certified Instructors, this is a logical decision. How would someone in AZ (for example) find a MSP Certified Instructor?? Some states do publish a list, so folks in other states can find someone . . . MA is "different".

You are correct, only MA LEOs going thru MPTC are exempt from the training requirement here. Returning Veterans also have to go thru this BS. If you ever met the legislators (and bureaucrats) who wrote this garbage into law, it might be more understandable . . . I have met a number of these turds face to face.

rogerswann · January 11th, 2008, 11:47 AM

Here, here on the "reality".
I am going to try and follow up on the non resident requirement. I did read the part about the Col's discretion, but didn't know how to find out if an NRA Pistol Instructor Course taken in RI would qualify. I'll make a call to the CHSB today and see what they say.

LenS · January 11th, 2008, 12:15 PM

Better to call GOAL, 508-393-5333 x201. Tell Nancy that Len sent you.

GOAL sits on the Governor's Gun Control Advisory Board (by statute), which gen's up the CMRs (like CFRs for the state) that implements all the gun statutes.

The people who usually answer the phones at CHSB are NOT attorneys and know nothing about guns and almost nothing about the gun laws. They frequently give out WRONG info when asked legal questions. The only attorney there is the head honcho (not sure of her title) and she knows nothing about guns (she's friends with a gun lawyer that I know).

If you are an accredited Fed LEO, skip the LTC as it buys you nothing at all. MGL Ch. 140 S. 129C (o) allows ALL LEOs (from any jurisdiction w/in the US) to carry firearms in MA, exempt from the LTC requirement.

rogerswann · January 12th, 2008, 09:11 AM

Hey LenS,

I got the call to CHSB made, but didn't get the post on Goal in time to call on friday. I'll give them a buzz next week. Thanks for the info.
The CHSB answer was what the application says, a "MA certified" instructor must give the training, res or non-res. He stated that some time ago a non-res didn't need to meet this requirement, but they were interpreting this wrong. That was the reason it shows up bold faced in the application.
I have a feeling even if CHSB is wrong, it will probably be easier to just take the MA course, especially since we already have it scheduled, and move on with getting the LTC as opposed to trying to correct the issue. I am not saying the battle is not worth fighting, just for the sake of expediting the process it is easier to just take the course.

res2cue · January 12th, 2008, 01:13 PM

but I just signed on and here to say Hi

LenS · January 12th, 2008, 10:35 PM

Roger,

Since you have the opportunity, by all means take it.

Based on past experiences, I'd take GOAL's word on it over CHSB on what flies or not. Please post what you learn from them here.

LenS · January 18th, 2008, 05:20 PM

I apologize up-front for not being able to nail down THE ANSWER on the non-Resident questions.

I have now talked with 3 different people at GOAL and received mixed answers.

Regrettably, the best answer I received was for the person concerned to make a call to the Colonel of the Mass State Police and attempt to talk with him directly and ask your questions. Another option would be to Fax a letter to him personally asking for clarification and requesting a Faxed response (written responses always trump "he said, she said" ).

One of the people I spoke with told me that he is suspicious that the Governor may be "changing the rules" with no notice to anyone and thus the rules today may not be the same tomorrow. Indeed the Colonel of the Mass State Police is a political appointee of the Governor and thus can be replaced if s/he does not do as s/he is told! MGLs also give the Colonel the power to make the rules on what's acceptable training for Non-Residents (MGL is very clear for Residents, but it is a different law for NRs) and how the forms need to be filled out to get that LTC-A/ALP (or "none" for restrictions).

Contact info:

Col. Mark Delaney, Superintendent
Mass State Police
470 Worcester Road
Framingham, MA 01702
508-820-2300
Fax: 508-879-6941

If you are told it must be a MSP Certified Instructor's certificate, ask him for the names/phone numbers of such instructors that live in your state. [If you are unable to reach the Colonel directly, ask for name, rank and S/N of whomever you do speak with.]

Please report back here what you find out for answers. Thanks.

January 12th, 2008, 01:13 PM	#16
res2cue New Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Northwest coner of Rhode Island Posts: 4	Not to bust in but I just signed on and here to say Hi

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January 10th, 2008, 10:22 AM	#11
rogerswann Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: RI Posts: 46	The following quote is taken from line 8 of Non-Resident Application Instructions. "The application states that first time applicants must submit a copy of a recent certificate showing completion of a basic firearm safety course given in their home state or in Massachusetts.This course must have been taken with an instructor who is certified by the Colonel of the Massachusetts State Police." The bold faced sentence is bold faced in the application. This is the part that makes a non resident seek an instructor on the "list". It is kind of silly, because to become a "MA" certified instructor just entails filling out paperwork and providing your instructor credentials. I requalify twice a year(federal) at a local Mass police department with their officers acting as range safety officers and this does not meet the firearms safety course, but I can go sit for 4 hours in a class run by someone who has jumped through the hoops to become a MA instructor and this qualifies. GO FIGURE!

January 10th, 2008, 11:48 PM	#12
LenS Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,309	Roger, the forms do not always reflect "reality" of how any state agency operates. I'll take GOAL's word on this as to what is currently done. MGL gives the Col of the MSP the authority to make the rules for NR LTCs . . . and this is indeed different from MGL wrt Resident LTCs. Since the state does not release any list of MSP Certified Instructors, this is a logical decision. How would someone in AZ (for example) find a MSP Certified Instructor?? Some states do publish a list, so folks in other states can find someone . . . MA is "different". You are correct, only MA LEOs going thru MPTC are exempt from the training requirement here. Returning Veterans also have to go thru this BS. If you ever met the legislators (and bureaucrats) who wrote this garbage into law, it might be more understandable . . . I have met a number of these turds face to face.

January 11th, 2008, 11:47 AM	#13
rogerswann Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: RI Posts: 46	Here, here on the "reality". I am going to try and follow up on the non resident requirement. I did read the part about the Col's discretion, but didn't know how to find out if an NRA Pistol Instructor Course taken in RI would qualify. I'll make a call to the CHSB today and see what they say.

January 11th, 2008, 12:15 PM	#14
LenS Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,309	Better to call GOAL, 508-393-5333 x201. Tell Nancy that Len sent you. GOAL sits on the Governor's Gun Control Advisory Board (by statute), which gen's up the CMRs (like CFRs for the state) that implements all the gun statutes. The people who usually answer the phones at CHSB are NOT attorneys and know nothing about guns and almost nothing about the gun laws. They frequently give out WRONG info when asked legal questions. The only attorney there is the head honcho (not sure of her title) and she knows nothing about guns (she's friends with a gun lawyer that I know). If you are an accredited Fed LEO, skip the LTC as it buys you nothing at all. MGL Ch. 140 S. 129C (o) allows ALL LEOs (from any jurisdiction w/in the US) to carry firearms in MA, exempt from the LTC requirement.

January 12th, 2008, 09:11 AM	#15
rogerswann Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: RI Posts: 46	Hey LenS, I got the call to CHSB made, but didn't get the post on Goal in time to call on friday. I'll give them a buzz next week. Thanks for the info. The CHSB answer was what the application says, a "MA certified" instructor must give the training, res or non-res. He stated that some time ago a non-res didn't need to meet this requirement, but they were interpreting this wrong. That was the reason it shows up bold faced in the application. I have a feeling even if CHSB is wrong, it will probably be easier to just take the MA course, especially since we already have it scheduled, and move on with getting the LTC as opposed to trying to correct the issue. I am not saying the battle is not worth fighting, just for the sake of expediting the process it is easier to just take the course.

January 12th, 2008, 10:35 PM	#17
LenS Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,309	Roger, Since you have the opportunity, by all means take it. Based on past experiences, I'd take GOAL's word on it over CHSB on what flies or not. Please post what you learn from them here.

January 18th, 2008, 05:20 PM	#18
LenS Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,309	I apologize up-front for not being able to nail down THE ANSWER on the non-Resident questions. I have now talked with 3 different people at GOAL and received mixed answers. Regrettably, the best answer I received was for the person concerned to make a call to the Colonel of the Mass State Police and attempt to talk with him directly and ask your questions. Another option would be to Fax a letter to him personally asking for clarification and requesting a Faxed response (written responses always trump "he said, she said" ). One of the people I spoke with told me that he is suspicious that the Governor may be "changing the rules" with no notice to anyone and thus the rules today may not be the same tomorrow. Indeed the Colonel of the Mass State Police is a political appointee of the Governor and thus can be replaced if s/he does not do as s/he is told! MGLs also give the Colonel the power to make the rules on what's acceptable training for Non-Residents (MGL is very clear for Residents, but it is a different law for NRs) and how the forms need to be filled out to get that LTC-A/ALP (or "none" for restrictions). Contact info: Col. Mark Delaney, Superintendent Mass State Police 470 Worcester Road Framingham, MA 01702 508-820-2300 Fax: 508-879-6941 If you are told it must be a MSP Certified Instructor's certificate, ask him for the names/phone numbers of such instructors that live in your state. [If you are unable to reach the Colonel directly, ask for name, rank and S/N of whomever you do speak with.] Please report back here what you find out for answers. Thanks.