BILLYKALDRICH

Ron, I think you maybe looking for something that is not there.It's not.

Ron

Billy,

I suspect that you are correct. On hindsight, I probably should not have reacted as I did. Overly sensitive I suppose.

Thanks for the post.

Ron

dr_cmg

Ron, although I read your first post (addressed to me) I decided to stay out of this discussion because as both the thread started and a moderator I hoped that the author would come back and answer your post.

I appreciate that you have determined that you might have misinterpreted Billy's statement. I also appreciate your willingness to make a public statement to that effect.

Thanks.

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George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

40FIVER

I am a Believer and have been for over 40 years. There has never been a more important event take place than the crucifixion and subsequent resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Every person on this earth will ultimately answer to their belief or unbelief about Jesus's claim that he is God come in the flesh.

My signature quotes a scripture verse on why I carry.

I certainly didn't see any race bashing in any of the recent posts on this thread. BTW, I do believe that the Jews are God's chosen people, and I will support Israel and the Jewish people until the day I die. The Jews didn't kill Jesus, no one could do that. He gave his life.

To the poster 'who shall remain anonymous' - I've noticed that this is the second thread recently where your sensitivities have been stepped on (see the thread on calling a sheep a sheep). I respectfully suggest that if someone says something that is insensitive to you, stop reading that particular thread.

I'm beginning to think that you run a sensitivity training institute or something and are looking for clients.

Just Kidding.

Charlie

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Charlie - 40FIVER

Why I carry:
"The heart is deceitul above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9

BILLYKALDRICH

Thanks Ron, I think no one here ment harm.But peoples interpetation of scripture is why we have so many different denominations.And that is the devils joy and job "to separate and divide" So many times our feelings are the result of Satans work.God Bless you Ron Your Bro in Christ Billy

Ron

Charlie,

That seems like sensible advice, which I suppose everyone should follow. Thanks.

Ron

spacecoastguy

I owed a debt i could not pay, HE paid a debt he did not owe, i was lost and HE found me and opened my eyes to the truth, that i could not save my self, so HE sent HIS only SON to be the blood sacrfice for my sin!

sjp2452

spacecoastguy, thank you... I've heard and preached the old, old story so many times, but still to hear it is truly life-giving. That's a great 3-line sermon, and I'm blessed to have read it.

p8riot

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. I suppose I should've subscribed to it.

Thanks for the support George. Bible translation work is more rewarding when we know that the folks at home are holding the translators and staff up in their prayers, and helping them to meet needs.

We'll keep them in our prayers. Keep us informed as to how they are getting along. It is great to know other folks who are laboring toward the same ends.

God Bless all

Kevin

__________________
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.

OfClanMcnab

I am a new member, so I have been poking about the forum reading old threads, and this one piqued my interest. The following is a brief essay I wrote a month ago because of some discussions I had with friends.

As an individual who grew up in a traditional home that taught values such as chivalry, honor, character, and self-sacrifice, I never thought twice about what I would do if I came upon a crime taking place. Reading books like The White Company and Waverly instilled a sense of duty in me. I figured if I died while trying to save someone, well, that is just how I would die. It never occurred to me that there was any other option. I have become more worldly-wise since then, and have learned that there are indeed other options, such as hiding under a table or crouching behind a desk while using a cellphone videocamera to document the victimization of another human being.

In my growing wisdom (please read a hint of self-sarcasm into that), I understand the rationale behind hiding while someone else is in trouble. Perhaps you don’t possess a weapon, or perhaps you are simply too terrified to think straight. What I do not understand is the concept of pacifism, especially as it relates to self-defense. Being a Christian, this strikes very close to home, because many of the arguments for shunning weapons for self-defense are supposedly based on Biblical principles. Therefore, I decided to do a bit of research and see if there was any truth to this principle. What I have found so far indicates to me that pacifism is a convoluted mess of emotion-based ideas and logical fallacies. Furthermore, I believe it is immoral.

First point: I haven’t been able to find any place in the Bible that says you can’t defend yourself or others. The Beatitudes in Matthew mention turning the other cheek to your enemy, but if you look at the context, it is referring to relationships. When Jesus used the word ‘enemies’ in the Beatitudes, He was talking about the people in your life whom you have disgreements with, not the man who just broke into your house and is trying to rape your daughter. The Ten Commandments state that you shall not kill, but the word that is used for ‘kill’ means to murder. Killing in self-defense or in battle is not murder, unless you live in the UK. If God literally meant that you should not take another human life, He would not have had the Israelites clean out Canaan by the sword.

Most pacifists like to quote Jesus, when He tells Peter to put up his sword. Matthew 26:52 (NIV) says “‘Put your sword back in its place,’ Jesus said to him, ‘for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’” Some translations say ‘Those who live by the sword die by the sword.’ Jesus did not mean this literally; he was telling Peter in a proverbial fashion that the sword is not the answer for everything. We know this is not literal because we know that not everyone who has drawn a sword has died by the sword. Throughout history, men have carried swords, knives, and various weapons for self-defense, but carrying a sword for self-defense (or any other weapon) is not considered ‘living by the sword’, any more than having a toolbox in your garage makes you a mechanic. Jesse James carried a gun for the sole purpose of not only making a living by robbery, but to get his way. Using a gun to get your way is not only a good example of living by the sword (gun), but a good way to get killed, at which point you will understand the proverb - as did Jesse James.

The fact that the Bible does not mention self-defense seems to be a validation of the argument for self-defense. If it were important, it would be clearly written somewhere that we should not defend ourselves. Instead, we are left with a curious lack of discussion of this important aspect of life. I think this is simply because the answer is so obvious: of course you should defend yourself and others. The right to defend your life, and the lives of others, is a self-evident, inalienable right of all men.

Second point: in Luke 2, Jesus mentions that His disciples should sell their garments to buy swords if they didn’t already have them. If you look at the context, He wasn’t literally saying that He wanted His disciples to sell their robes and start strappin’ steel - I think He was trying to make a different point in this passage. But His disciples did produce two swords, indicating that they were armed. If carrying a weapon is wrong, why hadn’t Jesus addressed this issue before this time? They had been together for at least two years at this point, and you would think Jesus would have told His disciples to get rid of their swords if He did not endorse carrying weapons. Furthermore, in Luke 22 (which describes Jesus’ arrest), it mentions that several of Jesus’ disciples were armed - not just Peter: “49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, ‘Lord, should we strike with our swords?’ 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.” Again, why had Jesus allowed this to continue if it was wrong to carry weapons?

Finally, I cannot find a way to morally reconcile pacifism with common sense. The following scenario shows what I am referring to: You come upon a person assaulting another person with a deadly weapon. What do you do if you do not believe in violent self-defense? Do you fetch a police officer who is just around the corner? If you do this it is likely that the police officer will kill the assailant. If he does, you are an accessory to the police officer’s violent act. Really your only option is to say ‘Please stop!’ and then die when the assailant dispatches you to eliminate witnesses. Of course, if that happens, you will escape the judgment of being an accessory to the killing of the bad guy by the police officer, so you can feel morally in the right as you die.

Something else to consider: If you are in the same scenario, and somehow find a weapon close at hand, you will then be faced with a predicament. If you do not fetch the police officer, you escape being an accessory to ‘murder’, and you are still safely on the righteous path. But, if you use the weapon, you are now a ‘murderer’, and as the bad guy’s blood leaks onto the ground, you find yourself condemned. If you do not use the gun, you are an accessory to the victim’s murder, because you could have prevented their death! Oh hideous dilemma.

Pacificism is a logical quandary, and therefore I reject it. It cannot be reconciled with the principles and morals of the Bible when presented with a real-life example. If everyone followed this logic, where would we be as a society?

Through real-life application and experiences, as well as study, I have found the principles of the Bible to be based on common sense. I do not believe Jesus was a conflicted individual when it came to an issue like this. I have always thought WWJD was a silly fad, but in this situation I believe it is applicable. What would Jesus do if he came upon a crime taking place? He would stop it. Obviously he could do it without killing anyone, but that is not the point. The point is that Jesus would take action, and we should do the same. It is not only cowardly to refuse to help someone in danger when you have the means and opportunity, it is selfish.

When the government recognizes your right to carry a firearm for self-defense or the defense of others, there is nothing wrong with refusing to carry a gun because you would not be comfortable with it, or you are afraid of dying. At least you can be honest about why you aren’t going to carry a weapon. Many people in our modern society have an irrational and superstitious fear of guns, as though the guns themselves possess an evil will of their own. While this fear should be confronted and overcome, it is also a legitimate excuse to not carry a weapon.

What is inexcusable, however, is to hide behind the flimsy shield of pacifism. Pacifism is intellectually lazy, and a cowardly way to shirk one’s duty in the face of fear.