dr_cmg

I find that most teaching today on submission is off balance one way or the other. The Scripture clearly instruct that wives are to be subject to their husbands and sometimes that is tough. What is often left out or under emphasized is the husband's duty to love to the extent of being willing to die. Then comes this verse:
How can a wife respect a husband if he is not able to provide security for her? Providing is addressed in this passage:
This is the verse that was instrumental in my becoming a concealed carrier and in my having firearms at various locations in the house. I realized that providing was more than house, clothes, food, etc. It includes protection. Then I realized that I am not always in the position to provide protection, therefore I need to provide a way for my wife to be protected when I am not there. That involved explaining to her my responsibility before God to protect her and that there were times when I could not. Since there were those times I wanted her to get firearms training and a concealed carry permit and actually carry when ever and where ever she legally could. I also told her that it was selfishness on my part that was partially to blame for my determination. I love her, I don't want anything to happen to her, I am not able to stand guard over her 24/7, so I am asking her to make a sacrifice for me and learn to protect herself.

She has been carrying since March 2006. There are times when she complains about the extra weight of the gun, but she carries it anyway. Another thing it did was to give us another activity that we can enjoy together - shooting.

__________________
George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

miklcolt45

One of the problems with translating out of the original languages in Scripture is that the translators break the passages out into different paragraphs. The Ephesians passage mentioned breaks between what we call Eph. 5:21 and 5:22, implying that they are somehow different thoughts. In fact, IMHO, 5:21 is the CLEAR principle by which the next verses must be interpreted and understood. To take 5:22-33 out of that context is to run the danger of missing the principle.

5:21- Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

This passage is about mutual submission. Wives to husbands, husbands to wives. Never can this passage be allowed to advocate for the wrong-headed, heavy-handed kind of "do what I say, I'm your head" actions that some men use to justify being buttheads (not from the original Greek, in case anyone was wondering. ) to their wives.

Anyway, context matters. 5:21 reminds us of a humility and love that Christ exemplified. We are to exemplify it, too.

__________________
Mike

In God we trust. Everyone else,
keep your hands where I can see them.

sjp2452

After 16 pages we were bound to hit a point of contention! Gents, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her. Do your job and she'll be overjoyed to do hers.

Now can we please get back to welcoming our brethren?

dr_cmg

Actually we were in agreement. Mike was expanding on a principal that I chose to just mention. Your statement is also in agreement with both of us. Glad to see that there is a group of men here who understand that the passage does not mean that we get to be the boss.

One of the neat things about this thread is that it is practically impossible to hijack.

Good discussion.

__________________
George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

Gary Brommeland

That is not at all what I said, nor was my position based upon the scriptures that you mentioned.
Rather than taking an individual verse or two out of context, I believe that a more accurate understanding of scripture will be obtained by understanding the entire body of scripture...

For the record, the "Greek" is not original - it is just an earlier copy. Scholars working on the Dead Sea Scrolls project have found earlier manuscripts of New Testament writings that were in Aramaic.

Gary Brommeland

Actually, I do not accept or agree with that position...Scripture clearly lays the responsibility for leadership on men. However, leadership does not mean dominance, and I absolutely resent the implication that it does. It means that I am the one who is responsible for my family's well-being, and in an emergency (such as a defensive engagement) I am going to exert whatever level of force that is possible and necessary to resolve it while preserving my family's safety. I do not seek or need my wife's permission for that.

However, My point seems to have gotten lost. I do not use my position as the "Head" of my household to "boss" my wife around - quite the opposite - I view my role as a responsibility to care for her. However, my wife does not set the rules for my household, either. I will do whatever I feel I am obligated to do without her permission or consent. The Messiah gets to make the rules, or else we all have a problem in understanding what the word "Lord" means. My job is to determine how HIS commands apply to me and to obey them. Her job is to do likewise.

miklcolt45

Gary,

Please forgive my ignorance, but I am not aware of any Dead Sea Scroll material which contained New Testament texts in Aramaic. I could only find one comment anywhere which indicated a fragment of text in Greek, but that is seriously disputed by many scholars.

Do you have a reference I could look at?

I am aware that there has been much speculation for many years that behind the Gospels was an original Aramaic source which was called Q (for Quelle, German for 'source'). There has been no actual 'sighting' of Q to date that I am aware of.

Any further information would be appreciated.

Your brother in Christ,
Mike

__________________
Mike

In God we trust. Everyone else,
keep your hands where I can see them.

miklcolt45

Gary,

I was in no way impugning you. I do not know you. And I did not sense that you were suggesting such a thing.

I have, however, known many men who have misused this text for dominance. I was merely pointing out that such a position, based on this text, would not be an accurate interpretation of it.

No offense was aimed at you, and I apologize that it came across that way. It was not my intent.

Mike

__________________
Mike

In God we trust. Everyone else,
keep your hands where I can see them.

Gary Brommeland

A scholar by the name of Nehemiah Gordon is one of the translators on the project, and he has personally seen portions of Mattityahu (Mathew). I've heard him speak.
Try going to www.michaelrood.com - he's got a book or two out - you might find some information there.

Gary Brommeland

Well - I gotta sat that it sure looked like it from where I was sitting. If I misconstrued your post, then please accept my apologies as well.