LibertyGal

It was my pastor who originally urged me to get my CCW, and several Sundays later when I mentioned I had picked it up, asked, "So where's your gun?" I've carried in church -- and everywhere else -- ever since.

I knew he carried, and I always wondered if he carried in church. I guess I got my answer.

Since I'm so committed to CCW, he wants me to work with some of the other ladies in the church - take them to the range, talk to them about personal defense, firearms basics, etc.

A few guys mentioned that their states have churches on the "do not carry" list. Just something to think about: is the House of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, or under the lordship of the State? If the state cannot prohibit carry on any other private property, how can they prohibit it in a church? I personally would contact as many pro-2A state reps as possible and work to get that changed. In today's environment, Christian churches will be at the top of the list when the sleeper jihad cells are awakened - not to mention an open target for the run-of-the-mill nutcase or BG.

LibertyGal

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Requiring a license makes it illegal to do something that was lawful before the license was required.

dr_cmg

The states that I have heard about that prohibit carrying in houses of worship include a provision that allows the church to authorize carrying. I don't know if all states have that provision, but at least some do. At the same time I agree that if you carried in church in a state that prohibited and were arrested for it a good lawyer could probably get the law overturned as unconstitutional.

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George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

DizTbone

Hello, all. This is my second post on this board. I've enjoyed reading so far. I am a United Methodist preacher in a rural community. I don't have my CHL, yet...but I will soon...and may have to explain in to my denom. Hmph!

After a long chat with a Det. from our Sheriff's office, I learned that I am allowed to carry, permit or no, on any property I control. Well, you can bet that I carry at home...and at the church during the week. I have two churches, actually...and thus have a drive between them, so my lack of permit makes Sunday morning a bit sticky... They aren't far enough apart for it to be considered a "journey." (That's a loophole in Arkansas law...one is allowed to carry while on a journey. It used to be that was 17 miles, now it is any trip that could reasonably be extended over night.) I have started carrying my cell phone and some other toys, though. I've also been brushing up my martial arts, too. It's not a perfect solution...but better than standing their with my mouth open. (I should have taken Aikido...it would make action while wearing that robe sooooo much easier.)

A news item from Christmas Eve 2005 really got me started thinking about this. Three armed men entered a UM church in Maryland and during the Christmas Eve service and had the children gather everyone's wallets. Fortunately, no one was hurt. No one reacted, either. :( What would I do in that situation? My detective friend has given me a few ideas...

Another situation from my teen years came flooding back, too. One of the women in our church was having marital problems. Her husband was involved in the drug trade allegedly working for a local judge (yep!). After he faked his own death, and turned up alive, she started counseling with our pastor. Fortunately, he wasn't an idiot and made sure that he always had someone with him during these visits...usually his wife. Anyway, one day during the sermon, her husband shows up. He was using a cane (can you think "sword"? I did.) and loudly accusing the pastor of having an affair with his wife. It didn't get violent...but looked ever so close to it, to me... My dad (deacon) and uncle (asst. pastor) visited with the local PD and were advised about our rights to defense and security. So...I spent a few of my high school years doing security at church. I even had to listen to the sermon on tape... This took the form of having male greeters at every door (who were really quite polite) so that everyone would think, "they know my face." Now, that makes the good guys smile and feel welcomed. I am told that it makes the bad guys feel a little squirmy. We also did parking lot patrols...even thwarted a burglarly! I also learned to listen to my dad the first time he spoke. He may have been a combat medic, but he had skills. I saw him take down a guy who did get violent before our resident 6th degree black belt could react. Yep, when dad said "jump!" I respected his wishes!!!

To this day, I take those lessons to heart. I greet every stranger before the service...just in case the cops in my home town were right...BG's don't like to be chatted up before they do something nefarious. The guy on the rear pew is a retired deputy. He's still very observant.

My churches are smallish, so their are several open firing lanes at any one time. However, in a big church, the decision to fire or not would be much more complicated. It is also complicated by the fact that my denom. body's reaction would be...er...less than pleasant. I don't think they, as a whole, would react well to a violent resolution to a violent situation. It is sad that some would rather cry over the corpse of a friend than the corpse of a BG. My uncle (mentioned above) and I have also argued about Christian duty vis-a-vis self defense. His position is "do no harm, ever." Maybe the fact that I now have a theology of confession and pardon helps me to see my way through should I ever be in a situation when my training kicks in and my head says "go with it."

St_Michael.... I knew you were Eastern Rite! My wife is Orthodox. I guess that means I should say that you are "Uniate." Please, no rocks...I'm not hung up on the Rome-versus-Constantinople fued. Her priest has been trying to get me to convert for about two years. I have a problem with the canonical prohibition against killing any mammal. I used to hunt...and will again, if I get hungry. He was shocked to find out that I own firearms. He was even more shocked to find out that I would use them. So...I guess the only place in the Orthodox world for me would be Deacon...where you are expected, in some areas, to drink hard, love people even harder, and own an AK.

Oh...on the score of "turn the other cheek"... I have a friend who is a Greek scholar who swears that the context of that passage is "okay...you hit me like you would a slave, child, or woman...now, I'll offer you the other cheek to see if you have the courage to hit me like a man." He says that's a challenge...much like a knight throwing down his gauntlet. I like that interpretation.

In any case, I think that taking violent action is not a perfect solution. But then...the early Eastern Church Fathers (writing before 800 AD) insist that original sin doesn't mean that every baby born is guilty (like Augustine, does) but, that every baby is born into an imperfect and diseased world and is adversely affected by the environment into which it is born. Imperfect world => imperfect situations => imperfect solutions.

Again, Christians have some good examples of using violent defenses...Constantine and his successors defended Christian lands until 1453. Charlemagne save W. Europe from Muslim domination before 800, offering the defeated Muslim army "Christ or the sword." A largely Christian army opposed Hitler, and freed many of our Jewish friends from certain death. It's all regrettable, but I find that I have no prohibition against a vigorous defense. I have no desire to go maurauding about the globe, either. Maybe the sentiment was best delivered in the movie "The Patriot" (Mel Gibson) by the village parson: "Sometimes the shepherd has to defend the flock from the wolves."

Michael

dr_cmg

Thanks, Michael, and welcome to the forum. I am very glad to see so many of our forum members are Christian and that a significant number are, for lack of a better word, clergy. If your denomination ever gives you any trouble about guns call me. I'll be happy to dunk you and then you can become a Baptist. We don't have problems with guns. My church is a small country church so we have a bi-vocational pastor. Our pastor is director of the Office of Christian Ethics & Chaplaincy Ministries for the Alabama Baptist State Board of Missions. He is also a hunter and fisherman.

The current president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Bobby Welsh, is an Alabama native who still hunts occasionally. He became a Christian as a teenager and later served in combat in Vietnam as a reconnaissance platoon leader.

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George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

DizTbone

Thanks, George. Being in Arkansas, I think there are too many hunters to get general grief about firearms. Packing...that might turn some heads. Of course, if it's concealed, they shouldn't notice.

Thanks for the offer. It's good to be wanted. I had a similar one from a Catholic friend...have to be a Deacon instead of a Priest, though. Boy, wouldn't my wife love that...an Orthodox married to a Catholic. We could re-enact the Great Schism!

Hmmm...I know... I could become Jewish! An Orthodox Rabbi friend who believes that Yeshua is Meshiach has already offered to get me into the IDF.

Michael

Rock and Glock

WATCH what you say around here! This is a family forum!

Actually, that's pretty funny too! I can see it now in the local paper's "Religious News" pages..... "United Methodist Preacher (Baptist by dunking, by George) Becomes Deacon, Observes Rosh Hashanah".

That'd turn a head or two.......

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Richard

NRA Life Member

"In this world a man must either be anvil or hammer" Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

DizTbone

ROTFL!

Rock... I'll have to post a pic of the T-shirt the good Rabbi brought me from "The Land" (Israel). It says either "Israel, Uzi does it" or "Israel, Uzi gets it done"...been a while since I pulled it out.

If my wife had her way and I went Eastern Orthodox, that'd be Father Deacon!

Michael

BlueLion

Minister checking in here and like the disciples before us. I carry my word and sword everyday....Good Post this really lends to the diversity and culture of the site....

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Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

dr_cmg

Thanks, Blue. I kept bumping into a few posts that obviously came from ministers, and I figured that there were others who had not made it obvious. I have really been pleased with the response that we have had on this thread. I am also pleased that neither the Christians/ministers nor those who are not of our persuasion have made any issue of religion. I have seen this happen too many times. It is just one more of the reasons why this is the best forum on the net and why we need to keep thanking Bumper and our moderators for their diligence in keeping it so friendly.

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George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

DizTbone

I just read about a church shooting today. It reminds me a lot of the inicident from the teens that I described above. Fortunately, my experience didn't escalate this far. Hmph...and I was just preaching on Jn. 15:9, ff.

Here's the link:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/21/chu....ap/index.html

Michael