Calling All Christians / Preachers - Page 5

P95Carry · May 21st, 2006, 03:24 PM

Oh no - not another

Quote:

BATON ROUGE, Louisiana (AP) -- A gunman opened fire at a church Sunday, killing at least five people before he abducted his wife and one of his children, police said.

A search was on for a suspect identified as Anthony Bell, 25, of Baton Rouge, Sgt. Charles Armstrong said.

Bell fled the church after abducting his wife and the infant from the building, Armstrong said. The two older children were found safe at their home.

dr_cmg · May 21st, 2006, 04:46 PM

Thanks, for the update, Michael. If anyone wonders why I carry in church they can just read about this incident. The fact that someone can walk into most churches and start shooting knowing that there is very little chance that anyone will be armed is not wasted on the BGs. They know it and exploit it.

HotGuns · May 21st, 2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

A few guys mentioned that their states have churches on the "do not carry" list. Just something to think about: is the House of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, or under the lordship of the State? If the state cannot prohibit carry on any other private property, how can they prohibit it in a church? I personally would contact as many pro-2A state reps as possible and work to get that changed. In today's environment, Christian churches will be at the top of the list when the sleeper jihad cells are awakened - not to mention an open target for the run-of-the-mill nutcase or BG.

LibertyGal

I've wondered the same thing myself. Personally, I dont think that it could stand if it were challenged in a court of law. The trouble is, until someonehas become sufficiently motivated, it'll stand as law for a long time.

As an LEO, I have no restrictions on carry in a church, but it is my thought that the more guns that are carried the less one will have to worry about indiscriminate shootings.

When the "sleepers" are activated we'll need all the help we can get.

GPS · May 30th, 2006, 08:38 PM

This was not the first church shooting we've had down in Louisiana. I recall one that occurred in Gonzales, LA a few years ago. Gonzales is between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. In both cases, the shootings stemmed from domestic violence spill over. I've written to a couple of folks in our state legislature to ask them to take churches off the "Defenseless Victim Zone" list. The only folks that could carry in a church down here legally are LEO and someone carrying under a Parish Permit issued by the local Sheriff, which essentially makes the person a reserve deputy.

I used to have one of those reserve commissions when I worked as an arson investigator for the local fire department, but don't have it anymore. With the way the world is going these days with the jihadists and the junkies and the domestic violence crowd running loose it just no longer makes sense to disarm people when they are congregating into large groups. It makes them too tempting a target; sheep for the shearing as it were. In a number of other countries, it has become customary for bad guys ona mission to attack the opposition while they were together in worship services. The law as written now does nothing to protect the innocent or law abiding because they are not the ones causing the problem. They are the victims. The bad guys are not going to follow the law anyway. The law is creating a free fire zone for them where they don't have to worry about anyone fighting back. The liberals and anti-gun crowd have been absolutely stupid on the issue of creating defenseless victim zones and it needs to stop, SOON.

Bear · June 7th, 2006, 05:54 PM

Wow! What a great place this is! I've never been to a forum quite like this. It was recommended in another CCW forum and, I've got to say, this is a great site! It's good to see so many preachers, Christians and "preacher sympathizers" in here!

My church is in SE Kentucky. After a spate of church robberies, I'm told, the state passed some kind of law encouraging preachers to be armed in the pulpit. Well, you don't need to tell me twice.

About the "turn the other cheek" thing: I think it's also worthwhile, in trying to determine the passage's meaning, to remember Jesus' original audience. He was talking to people who were experiencing an occupying army (Rome), and it was not uncommon for Roman soldiers to assert their will onto private citizens (non-Romans) of Jerusalem. Much like the phrase "if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two," which would have also been a common experience of the day (forced service), "turn the other cheek" was one that would have been a common experience for the 1st century Jewish citizen, since Roman soldiers wouldn't much mind slapping anyone who they deemed had insulted or defied them.

When Jesus talks about "turn the other cheek," it's my understanding that, within the social experience of the day, he is talking about His original audience not taking personal vengeance. He is not talking about a ban on self defense or the defense of others. Luke 22:36 has already been quoted here and there's no need for me to wear y'all out by quoting it again. I have also spoken to respected Greek scholars who believe that this is indeed a proper cultural understanding of this verse.

While I have no eagerness to send someone into Eternity, if there's a life or death situation being caused by someone else's selfish aggression and it's got to be me or my family or congregation or "them"; it's going to have to be "them."

sjp2452 · June 22nd, 2006, 03:08 PM

I've posted a couple other places about this and was invited to chime in on this most excellent thread. I just finished my first year of seminary and, Lord willing, I'll have a Master of Divinity degree in 2 more years. After that I'm pretty sure I'll wind up a pastor of a church somewhere in the USA. I do carry in church, though it has not been an easy question for me to answer. For more on that see my other posts (there aren't many yet).

As for those one-liners out of Scripture in support of carrying, you need to be really careful with that. When Jesus tells his disciples to sell their coat and buy a sword, what was He saying in the larger context? Was it literal or figurative? It may be that implicit in it is an approval of carrying a defensive weapon in the course of the day, but I haven't (and I suspect not many have) done the careful exegesis to uncover what Scripture is really saying. Sure, I'd like it to give such approval, but I cannot and will not presume such a meaning just because I like it. The fact is that before he sent them out with these instructions he had sent them out previously with instructions to take NOTHING with them--no extra clothing, no money, no food, no nuthin'. The verse about the sword needs to be looked at in light of the whole deal to understand where it came from and where it's going.

The truth of Scripture stands on its own, very much apart from my opinions. It does seem that there's more Scriptural support for carrying & defending than there is for not, but I've yet to find a "smoking gun" one way or the other in Scripture. That said, those passages cited and the interpretations given are intriguing. Romans 14:23 (where Paul has been discussing eating meat sacrificed to idols--nothing inherently wrong with the meat because the idol to which it was sacrificed is, in fact, nothing at all) says that "everything that does not come from faith is sin." I tend to think of this as the "rule of thumb" for all issues not directly (or indirectly) addressed in Scripture.

So Christian (clergy or not), what's really behind your choice to carry in church? Most answers given here have been good and right (IMO), but regarding this and many other issues let us continually confess the deceitfulness of our own hearts, and keep on praying Psalm 139:23-24:

Quote:

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me and know my anxious thoughts; and see if there be any hurtful way in me, and lead me in the everlasting way." (NASB95)

And thank God that our rightness in His sight doesn't depend on what we do or don't do, but solely on the finished work of Christ.

Sermon over. Benediction, Doxology, etc, etc, etc...

I appreciate immensely the discussion of this issue. I wish I could have more discussions like this with others in my church. Most people with whom I've broached the issue would rather not talk or think about it. Go figure!

Thumper · June 23rd, 2006, 12:29 AM

I'm a Christian and I lead a Home Fellowship and teach the Word. I spent 5 years as a police officer and consider my training a talent worth having available for myself, my family and the public. If my preparedness can save a life, I think that's a good thing!

gunjunky · July 8th, 2006, 09:19 PM

dr_cmg
Thanks for the invite to the thread. I'm new to the site so I'm still meandering around trying to find my way! I pastor a small pentecostal church in northeast AR. Ive been involved in ministry since I was in high school. I was raised with firearms and have always loved shooting sports.
However, the desicion to cary a concealed weapon was not really an easy desicion. When i first got my CCW it really wasnt with the intention of carrying on an everyday basis. I just wasnted to be able to keep a weapon in my vehicle to go to the range or plink when I took the notion without fear of being a law-breaker. But I found myself in a situation one time that turned me into a true beliver in CCW.
I was on my way back from my hunting grounds one afternoon and noticed somone in a vehicle behind me acting very agressivly. He would speed up right onto my bumper and then slow down. Then he got into the passing lane and sped up beside me with the window down screaming somthing that was uninteligable to me and giving me the finger. So I spead up and I thought I lost him.
Later, I pulled into a gas station and pulled up to the pump closest to the building. Before I got out of my vehicle I noticed the same truck pull right in behind mine. He had me blocked in, there was nowhere to go. The man got out of his vehicle obviously thinking I was someone else because he was screaming somthing about a stolen dog. He had a tire thumper in hand.
When hunting or fishing I always carried a 357 afeild with me. When he got to my truck window he came face to face with a stainless steel S&W 686. That caused him to realize that this was a case of mistaken identity. He mistook me for being a victim.
Later that night, what kept going through my mind were all the times that my family was with me and I wasn't prepared to defend myself. Until that day, I left my gun at home most of the time. I saw it as providence that caused me to have it with me that day. Ever since that day I decided that as mutch as I have faith in God's protection, I'm not going to tempt the Lord by not doing what I can to protect myself an my family.

one eyed fatman · July 8th, 2006, 10:15 PM

I'm not a preacher. Gave up on (Catholic) church a long time ago. When I want to talk to God I cut out the middle man and go straight to the man himself. He doesn't tell me how much of my paycheck I should give him and he doesn't tell me how I should think. Makes my life much simpler.

ecbaatz · July 8th, 2006, 11:29 PM

In Michigan you can only carry in church with the permission from the presiding authority. My parents live in the northern part of the lower peninsula and I have ask for permission but got turned down due to the "low crime" rate in this rural town. Luckily I live just north of the state line and Indiana allows carry in church.

What I am looking for is information, reasoning to change the mind of the Deacon Board. The pastor told me I could try again later but would like information/reasons to allow carry other then just the incidents that have happened.

Thanks for any and all input.

Eric

May 21st, 2006, 04:46 PM	#42
dr_cmg Lead Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,611	Thanks, for the update, Michael. If anyone wonders why I carry in church they can just read about this incident. The fact that someone can walk into most churches and start shooting knowing that there is very little chance that anyone will be armed is not wasted on the BGs. They know it and exploit it. __________________ George Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

May 30th, 2006, 08:38 PM	#44
GPS Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 94	Church shooting not the first in Louisiana This was not the first church shooting we've had down in Louisiana. I recall one that occurred in Gonzales, LA a few years ago. Gonzales is between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. In both cases, the shootings stemmed from domestic violence spill over. I've written to a couple of folks in our state legislature to ask them to take churches off the "Defenseless Victim Zone" list. The only folks that could carry in a church down here legally are LEO and someone carrying under a Parish Permit issued by the local Sheriff, which essentially makes the person a reserve deputy. I used to have one of those reserve commissions when I worked as an arson investigator for the local fire department, but don't have it anymore. With the way the world is going these days with the jihadists and the junkies and the domestic violence crowd running loose it just no longer makes sense to disarm people when they are congregating into large groups. It makes them too tempting a target; sheep for the shearing as it were. In a number of other countries, it has become customary for bad guys ona mission to attack the opposition while they were together in worship services. The law as written now does nothing to protect the innocent or law abiding because they are not the ones causing the problem. They are the victims. The bad guys are not going to follow the law anyway. The law is creating a free fire zone for them where they don't have to worry about anyone fighting back. The liberals and anti-gun crowd have been absolutely stupid on the issue of creating defenseless victim zones and it needs to stop, SOON. __________________ Cordially, GPS Visit U.S. Concealed Carry - The Ultimate Resource for the Armed Citizen http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/inde...ffID=GStrecker

June 23rd, 2006, 12:29 AM	#47
Thumper VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sparks, Nevada Posts: 3,688	Teacher not Preacher... I'm a Christian and I lead a Home Fellowship and teach the Word. I spent 5 years as a police officer and consider my training a talent worth having available for myself, my family and the public. If my preparedness can save a life, I think that's a good thing!

July 8th, 2006, 11:29 PM	#50
ecbaatz Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Edwardsburg, MI Posts: 154	A Question for the pastors. In Michigan you can only carry in church with the permission from the presiding authority. My parents live in the northern part of the lower peninsula and I have ask for permission but got turned down due to the "low crime" rate in this rural town. Luckily I live just north of the state line and Indiana allows carry in church. What I am looking for is information, reasoning to change the mind of the Deacon Board. The pastor told me I could try again later but would like information/reasons to allow carry other then just the incidents that have happened. Thanks for any and all input. Eric

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June 7th, 2006, 05:54 PM	#45
Bear New Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 8	Wow! What a great place this is! I've never been to a forum quite like this. It was recommended in another CCW forum and, I've got to say, this is a great site! It's good to see so many preachers, Christians and "preacher sympathizers" in here! My church is in SE Kentucky. After a spate of church robberies, I'm told, the state passed some kind of law encouraging preachers to be armed in the pulpit. Well, you don't need to tell me twice. About the "turn the other cheek" thing: I think it's also worthwhile, in trying to determine the passage's meaning, to remember Jesus' original audience. He was talking to people who were experiencing an occupying army (Rome), and it was not uncommon for Roman soldiers to assert their will onto private citizens (non-Romans) of Jerusalem. Much like the phrase "if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two," which would have also been a common experience of the day (forced service), "turn the other cheek" was one that would have been a common experience for the 1st century Jewish citizen, since Roman soldiers wouldn't much mind slapping anyone who they deemed had insulted or defied them. When Jesus talks about "turn the other cheek," it's my understanding that, within the social experience of the day, he is talking about His original audience not taking personal vengeance. He is not talking about a ban on self defense or the defense of others. Luke 22:36 has already been quoted here and there's no need for me to wear y'all out by quoting it again. I have also spoken to respected Greek scholars who believe that this is indeed a proper cultural understanding of this verse. While I have no eagerness to send someone into Eternity, if there's a life or death situation being caused by someone else's selfish aggression and it's got to be me or my family or congregation or "them"; it's going to have to be "them."

July 8th, 2006, 09:19 PM	#48
gunjunky Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 27	dr_cmg Thanks for the invite to the thread. I'm new to the site so I'm still meandering around trying to find my way! I pastor a small pentecostal church in northeast AR. Ive been involved in ministry since I was in high school. I was raised with firearms and have always loved shooting sports. However, the desicion to cary a concealed weapon was not really an easy desicion. When i first got my CCW it really wasnt with the intention of carrying on an everyday basis. I just wasnted to be able to keep a weapon in my vehicle to go to the range or plink when I took the notion without fear of being a law-breaker. But I found myself in a situation one time that turned me into a true beliver in CCW. I was on my way back from my hunting grounds one afternoon and noticed somone in a vehicle behind me acting very agressivly. He would speed up right onto my bumper and then slow down. Then he got into the passing lane and sped up beside me with the window down screaming somthing that was uninteligable to me and giving me the finger. So I spead up and I thought I lost him. Later, I pulled into a gas station and pulled up to the pump closest to the building. Before I got out of my vehicle I noticed the same truck pull right in behind mine. He had me blocked in, there was nowhere to go. The man got out of his vehicle obviously thinking I was someone else because he was screaming somthing about a stolen dog. He had a tire thumper in hand. When hunting or fishing I always carried a 357 afeild with me. When he got to my truck window he came face to face with a stainless steel S&W 686. That caused him to realize that this was a case of mistaken identity. He mistook me for being a victim. Later that night, what kept going through my mind were all the times that my family was with me and I wasn't prepared to defend myself. Until that day, I left my gun at home most of the time. I saw it as providence that caused me to have it with me that day. Ever since that day I decided that as mutch as I have faith in God's protection, I'm not going to tempt the Lord by not doing what I can to protect myself an my family.

July 8th, 2006, 10:15 PM	#49
one eyed fatman Ex Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 501	I'm not a preacher. Gave up on (Catholic) church a long time ago. When I want to talk to God I cut out the middle man and go straight to the man himself. He doesn't tell me how much of my paycheck I should give him and he doesn't tell me how I should think. Makes my life much simpler.