Calling All Christians / Preachers - Page 6

MR D · July 9th, 2006, 01:47 AM

I am a former youth Pastor (between youth groups) and currently a Deacon in a Baptist church, the Sr.Pastor is a sheeple leading sheeple
and he will tell you that so and so is a church member and a police detective so we should not "need" to carry in the church.....

(our LEO has only been to church twice in the last year......)

I AM looking for a new position

yeah, my prof said that the cheek turning was about an insult or an affront, not a violent physical attack....

And he also said that Jesus told them to purchase a sword because he was preparing them for his abscence.....

Kevin · July 9th, 2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MR D

yeah, my prof said that the cheek turning was about an insult or an affront, not a violent physical attack....

And he also said that Jesus told them to purchase a sword because he was preparing them for his abscence.....

All reputable scholars and commentaries believe that is what HE meant! When you translate the Greek, it can mean nothing else. He didn't want us to call someone a jerk that called us a name! I can't believe there are pastors still misusing those phrases.

dr_cmg · July 9th, 2006, 07:14 PM

I don't know how many pastor's are misinterpreting the phrase, but there are tons of lay people who are and do. Since a number of denominations (mine included) have no educational requirements for pastors and since there are many churches not affiliated with any denomination there will always be people who are in pulpits misinterpreting the Scriptures.

One of the classic examples comes from a Baptist who will remain nameless. He wanted to preach about women's hairdoos, so the used part of Matthew 24:17 and preached on "Top Knot Come Down." The KJV of Matthew 24:16-18 reads as follows.

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Having been around many preacher for over thirty years I have heard some sermons just about that bad myself. Anyway the misinterpretation of the turn the other cheek passage is not going away anytime soon.

DizTbone · July 10th, 2006, 08:50 AM

Now, Doc... You know that edumacation isn't necessarily effective!

My denom has strict educational requirements, and we still get some really squirrelly interpretations!

I'd make a list, but that'd just start a war with someone. Of course, we have a tier of pastors who have minimal education. Then we have a tier that have M. Div.'s (the majority). Then we have a tier with D.Min.'s. It's kinda funny, but the D. Min's seem to be more confused and more confusing than everyone else. I caught a mistake in the New Interpreter's Bible Commentary and pointed it out to a D.Min. holder and noted that the commentator should have known the passage where the OT explains the question. All I got were blank stares! My uncle, the self-educated preacher of 40 years, would have known that one. LOL!

Oh well... I'm not down on education. In fact, the longer I can keep myself in some type of school or another, the happier I'll be. I think it's fun.

The only downside is that it limits the amount of time I can carry.

Michael

dr_cmg · July 10th, 2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DizTbone

Now, Doc... You know that edumacation isn't necessarily effective!

My denom has strict educational requirements, and we still get some really squirrelly interpretations!

I'd make a list, but that'd just start a war with someone. Of course, we have a tier of pastors who have minimal education. Then we have a tier that have M. Div.'s (the majority). Then we have a tier with D.Min.'s. It's kinda funny, but the D. Min's seem to be more confused and more confusing than everyone else. I caught a mistake in the New Interpreter's Bible Commentary and pointed it out to a D.Min. holder and noted that the commentator should have known the passage where the OT explains the question. All I got were blank stares! My uncle, the self-educated preacher of 40 years, would have known that one. LOL!

Oh well... I'm not down on education. In fact, the longer I can keep myself in some type of school or another, the happier I'll be. I think it's fun.

The only downside is that it limits the amount of time I can carry.

Michael

Michael, you are right. But I never heard anyone with a seminary degree make a motion that we quit sending our preacher boys to seminary because it was slowing down the second coming. When asked to explain the preacher in question said that the Bible said that Jesus would return when we think not and that sending our preacher boys to seminary was teaching them to think and postponing the day when "we think not." The "Top Knot Come Down" and "Think Not" stories are not apocryphal.

When I worked in the library at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary as reference librarian I got to observe all sorts of students. During that time I determined that there were 3 types.

1. Those there for validation. All they were there for was to get the diploma. The memorized what was required for the tests and promptly forgot it afterwards. All they wanted was their card punched showing that they had a seminary degree.

2. Those there for indoctrination. These were the ones that wanted their opinions and beliefs validated. Their motto was, "Don't confuse me with the facts my mind is made up." These were the ones that always had to argue with the professor. The professor could be presenting the different views of the millennial kingdom and these would argue with the professor about any interpretation that was not theirs. They seemed incapable of understanding that it was necessary to present the various views to make the class a useful one.

3. Those there for education. These were there to learn they absorb all the information given and made up their minds about their beliefs. Sometimes they changed some and sometimes they did not, but they got the education none the less.

I felt it was one of my duties as an employee of the seminary to try to change as many 1s and 2s as possible into 3s. Happily I was able to change a few minds.

sjp2452 · July 11th, 2006, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecbaatz

What I am looking for is information, reasoning to change the mind of the Deacon Board. The pastor told me I could try again later but would like information/reasons to allow carry other then just the incidents that have happened.

Thanks for any and all input.

Eric

Pose the question--what would they do if an estranged husband of a woman in the church busted in and opened up with a shotgun? Which one of the shepherds would act to protect the sheep? Point out John 10:12-13 (The hired hand sees the wolf coming and flees because he does not care about the sheep). Then point out John 21:15-17(Jesus reinstating Peter after his denial, and charging him to take care of His sheep). He's looking for faithful undershepherds that will love His sheep and not take off running when the wolf comes.

The image of sheep & shepherd is everywhere in Scripture, and my pastor's recent sermon series on Psalm 23 has been making it clear why the image is used so much...because it's so accurate. What do sheep do? What people do--make a mess if left to their own devices. What do good shepherds do? They look out for the best interests of the sheep. How is your deacon board fulfilling their call as undershepherds of the Lord's flock? Are they gonna duck behind the nearest pew with the rest of the sheep when the wolf comes in with guns blazing?

Just some thoughts...

And I appreciate the Pentacostal pastor's .357 "it happened to me" story and the conclusion drawn--not tempting the Lord when I could do something to protect and choose not to. Good word! AH, and I see you carry an XD. Bravo!

See? Who says Lutherans and Pentacostals disagree?

GoodSamaritan · July 11th, 2006, 10:10 PM

This thread has been a big encouragement to me.
I can scarcely believe the number of ministers who carry.
For a long time I thought I was pretty much all alone.

God bless each and everyone of you guys.

witness · September 18th, 2006, 11:07 PM

Interesting thread.

I am not ordained ... simply a layman.

I have been riding motorcycles most of my life (turn 53 in Dec.). I have been riding with a Christian backpatch since about '93. I have rode with two previous Christian organization. I am currently the elder for Chapter Eight (SE Texas around the greater Houston area) of Born Again Motorcycle Ministry. I have been riding with BAMM since the beginning of this year. We are a Texas only 3-piece patch M/M (that may or may not mean anything to ya, depending on your knowledge of the biker world).

The wife and I consider this a blessed calling ... a chance to do what we enjoy (riding bikes) mixed with who we are (children of God with a mission). It is an interesting world ... few in Christian ministries get to put "a sign on their back" (our patch) advertising to the world that they are "available" ... and that is a good part of who we are ... We don't beat people over the head with a Bible ... we make ourselves available to those whom God calls; many of whom are people that would never consider crossing the doorway of a church, and have (to them at least) valid reasons to trust no one outside their "community" (in some cases particularly anyone who is "churchy"). It is all about slowly building trust, not swooping in with a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other <LOL>.

I never carried (or owned) a handgun until this year ... and I have traveled in circles and to places where many would not consider going, much less consider going unarmed. That is not a boast about my bravery ... more a statement of my rash stupidity in the days before I became an active Christian, and a statement of God's ability to look after His own (or in my case at times, the ability to look out after fools - LOL). In all the years I have spent on the road on two wheels (most times camping on the way) I have only experienced about 4 events where I thought that having a gun might be nice ... only two of those occasions were really serious events where a handgun might have been an advantage ...

In the above statement I am talking about encounters with people ... last year I had an encounter on the bike with some dogs ... long story short, if the dogs had not been more chicken than I, I would have been in deep trouble ... that got me thinking about a handgun.

As others have quoted here ... I believe it is Biblically "OK" to pack a weapon ... I grew up around long guns, and have generally always packed a knife that might be useful ... my father did not believe in having handguns around the house (personal preference based on his own hot temper and an act of stupidity when he was young that permanently parted another guys hair). Truthfully, in my younger days it would have been a very bad mistake for me to have a gun handy ... not a problem with guns ... but problems with mixing a drunk with a hot temper and a readily available gun.

Well, I am of a different temperament now ... the dog thing got me to looking at concealed carry ... being a biker, I am sensitive to the safety-nazis trying to "help me" by eroding my rights ... the more I looked the more I began to see that, as a Christian in our free society (that I believe is a blessing from God), I really have an obligation to protect what this country stands for and was founded upon ... the mentality that wants to destroy our society from within with "political correctness" is the same mentality that must first erode our freedoms ... and I believe our founders (guided by God) fully understood that the greatest need for an armed society may be in the need to protect our other freedoms from the very people we select to govern us.

So ... owning a tool like a handgun is really an obligation in our free society, particularly for those of us who see the need to protect the founding Christian freedoms of our nation ... it is no less an obligation than for a farmer or the cattleman to possess the proper implements to produce the food to feed us ...

Well this is getting long ... will just add that I believe people are foolish if they believe the government or those with a badge will "protect them" (no slight intended for those with a badge ... it is a tough and often thankless profession ... my statement is simply a matter of practical logistics - it is simply not realistic to expect you guys to be there to intervene in advance, the situation often puts you in the position of responding to the felony that has already happened) ... I have come to understand that being prepared and trained to use the necessary tool to protect one's self, family, and the innocent victim really is part of the foundation of a free society, and should be an expectation for responsible members of a society.

Chuck
Witness-Too
Chapter Eight
Born Again M/M

dr_cmg · September 19th, 2006, 12:27 AM

Chuck, thanks for the post and for the info about you and your ministry. When I started this thread I was really asking for preachers and pastors to reply. I knew that there were 4 or 5 of us. I got a response from them, but as our thread was at the top of the list other Christians started to read and reply. At the time I was not a moderator and couldn't change the title so it stuck.

It turns out that a lot of our members are Christians and very active. We do not mind addressing things from a Christian perspective, but we also remember that this is Bumper's board and it's purpose it to promote responsible, legal concealed carry. So we do not try to turn it into an evangelism tool nor a platform for preaching. Most of us recognize that there is a time and a place for everything and to hijack this forum would not be a Christian thing to do.

We sometimes discuss biblical positions on weapons carry in the Off Topic area. We offer blessings and condolences in Jesus name where ever the occasion arises. We add people to our prayer lists and let them know that we are praying for them when that is appropriate. Most people thank us for praying even if they are not Christian. It is a blessing to be able to offer prayers for those who are in need and to have them thank you.

Welcome again to Combat Carry. We look forward to your participation.

davyray · September 19th, 2006, 02:09 AM

I am a deacon in my church (Baptist) and I carry regularly. I have occasionally wondered why at church, then a news stroy pops up about a church shooting. Evidently no one told the bad guy that a chuch is supposed to be a sanctuary, free from that kind of stuff!

George, I agree on the point of "turning the other cheek." Recently I have been mentored by my pastor regarding hermeneutics, for which I could not be more grateful. I have always believed that the scripture was pretty black and white, but could never before quite explain why some people's "interpretation of the scripture" (I personally detest that phrase) didn't really fly. Now I'm learning how to really explain it simply and logically.

A related point that gets my gander is the camp that says, "if it is all part of God's plan, there is nothing we can do to change the coming events." I really don't read anywhere in the scripture that God wants us christians to be a bunch of pacifists and take whatever evil comes our way. Rather we are to stand and fight, with the primary battle being of spiritual nature "with the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Right before that, Paul says that our struggle is "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of THIS DARK WORLD..." (emphasis mine). This tells me the battle against evil does meet us in the physical world. I believe we should fight here too.

A wise man (who happened to be Jewish) once told me something that I not only try to live by, but have passed on to many others. "You don't have to be a barbarian to be a warrior." We christians can live Godly lives as servant leaders, full of kindness, mercy, and love and still be fierce warriors in the the struggle against evil. I think that is one of many things that makes us different in this world.

Thanks for your thread,

Dave.

July 9th, 2006, 07:14 PM	#53
dr_cmg Lead Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,611	I don't know how many pastor's are misinterpreting the phrase, but there are tons of lay people who are and do. Since a number of denominations (mine included) have no educational requirements for pastors and since there are many churches not affiliated with any denomination there will always be people who are in pulpits misinterpreting the Scriptures. One of the classic examples comes from a Baptist who will remain nameless. He wanted to preach about women's hairdoos, so the used part of Matthew 24:17 and preached on "Top Knot Come Down." The KJV of Matthew 24:16-18 reads as follows. 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Having been around many preacher for over thirty years I have heard some sermons just about that bad myself. Anyway the misinterpretation of the turn the other cheek passage is not going away anytime soon. __________________ George Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

July 10th, 2006, 08:50 AM	#54
DizTbone Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: West Central Arkansas Posts: 239	Now, Doc... You know that edumacation isn't necessarily effective! My denom has strict educational requirements, and we still get some really squirrelly interpretations! I'd make a list, but that'd just start a war with someone. Of course, we have a tier of pastors who have minimal education. Then we have a tier that have M. Div.'s (the majority). Then we have a tier with D.Min.'s. It's kinda funny, but the D. Min's seem to be more confused and more confusing than everyone else. I caught a mistake in the New Interpreter's Bible Commentary and pointed it out to a D.Min. holder and noted that the commentator should have known the passage where the OT explains the question. All I got were blank stares! My uncle, the self-educated preacher of 40 years, would have known that one. LOL! Oh well... I'm not down on education. In fact, the longer I can keep myself in some type of school or another, the happier I'll be. I think it's fun. The only downside is that it limits the amount of time I can carry. Michael __________________ XD9 Service, CZ-75B, Glock 21, Kel-Tec P3AT Rifles...yes...and shotguns....and "Unofficial Legislative Attache...er...Watchdog...er...Agitator." "Yes, I vote...but not for the candidate I prefer: None of the Above."

September 18th, 2006, 11:07 PM	#58
witness Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tx Posts: 21	new guy SE Texas Interesting thread. I am not ordained ... simply a layman. I have been riding motorcycles most of my life (turn 53 in Dec.). I have been riding with a Christian backpatch since about '93. I have rode with two previous Christian organization. I am currently the elder for Chapter Eight (SE Texas around the greater Houston area) of Born Again Motorcycle Ministry. I have been riding with BAMM since the beginning of this year. We are a Texas only 3-piece patch M/M (that may or may not mean anything to ya, depending on your knowledge of the biker world). The wife and I consider this a blessed calling ... a chance to do what we enjoy (riding bikes) mixed with who we are (children of God with a mission). It is an interesting world ... few in Christian ministries get to put "a sign on their back" (our patch) advertising to the world that they are "available" ... and that is a good part of who we are ... We don't beat people over the head with a Bible ... we make ourselves available to those whom God calls; many of whom are people that would never consider crossing the doorway of a church, and have (to them at least) valid reasons to trust no one outside their "community" (in some cases particularly anyone who is "churchy"). It is all about slowly building trust, not swooping in with a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other <LOL>. I never carried (or owned) a handgun until this year ... and I have traveled in circles and to places where many would not consider going, much less consider going unarmed. That is not a boast about my bravery ... more a statement of my rash stupidity in the days before I became an active Christian, and a statement of God's ability to look after His own (or in my case at times, the ability to look out after fools - LOL). In all the years I have spent on the road on two wheels (most times camping on the way) I have only experienced about 4 events where I thought that having a gun might be nice ... only two of those occasions were really serious events where a handgun might have been an advantage ... In the above statement I am talking about encounters with people ... last year I had an encounter on the bike with some dogs ... long story short, if the dogs had not been more chicken than I, I would have been in deep trouble ... that got me thinking about a handgun. As others have quoted here ... I believe it is Biblically "OK" to pack a weapon ... I grew up around long guns, and have generally always packed a knife that might be useful ... my father did not believe in having handguns around the house (personal preference based on his own hot temper and an act of stupidity when he was young that permanently parted another guys hair). Truthfully, in my younger days it would have been a very bad mistake for me to have a gun handy ... not a problem with guns ... but problems with mixing a drunk with a hot temper and a readily available gun. Well, I am of a different temperament now ... the dog thing got me to looking at concealed carry ... being a biker, I am sensitive to the safety-nazis trying to "help me" by eroding my rights ... the more I looked the more I began to see that, as a Christian in our free society (that I believe is a blessing from God), I really have an obligation to protect what this country stands for and was founded upon ... the mentality that wants to destroy our society from within with "political correctness" is the same mentality that must first erode our freedoms ... and I believe our founders (guided by God) fully understood that the greatest need for an armed society may be in the need to protect our other freedoms from the very people we select to govern us. So ... owning a tool like a handgun is really an obligation in our free society, particularly for those of us who see the need to protect the founding Christian freedoms of our nation ... it is no less an obligation than for a farmer or the cattleman to possess the proper implements to produce the food to feed us ... Well this is getting long ... will just add that I believe people are foolish if they believe the government or those with a badge will "protect them" (no slight intended for those with a badge ... it is a tough and often thankless profession ... my statement is simply a matter of practical logistics - it is simply not realistic to expect you guys to be there to intervene in advance, the situation often puts you in the position of responding to the felony that has already happened) ... I have come to understand that being prepared and trained to use the necessary tool to protect one's self, family, and the innocent victim really is part of the foundation of a free society, and should be an expectation for responsible members of a society. Chuck Witness-Too Chapter Eight Born Again M/M

September 19th, 2006, 12:27 AM	#59
dr_cmg Lead Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,611	Chuck, thanks for the post and for the info about you and your ministry. When I started this thread I was really asking for preachers and pastors to reply. I knew that there were 4 or 5 of us. I got a response from them, but as our thread was at the top of the list other Christians started to read and reply. At the time I was not a moderator and couldn't change the title so it stuck. It turns out that a lot of our members are Christians and very active. We do not mind addressing things from a Christian perspective, but we also remember that this is Bumper's board and it's purpose it to promote responsible, legal concealed carry. So we do not try to turn it into an evangelism tool nor a platform for preaching. Most of us recognize that there is a time and a place for everything and to hijack this forum would not be a Christian thing to do. We sometimes discuss biblical positions on weapons carry in the Off Topic area. We offer blessings and condolences in Jesus name where ever the occasion arises. We add people to our prayer lists and let them know that we are praying for them when that is appropriate. Most people thank us for praying even if they are not Christian. It is a blessing to be able to offer prayers for those who are in need and to have them thank you. Welcome again to Combat Carry. We look forward to your participation. __________________ George Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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July 9th, 2006, 01:47 AM	#51
MR D Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 737	I am a former youth Pastor (between youth groups) and currently a Deacon in a Baptist church, the Sr.Pastor is a sheeple leading sheeple and he will tell you that so and so is a church member and a police detective so we should not "need" to carry in the church..... (our LEO has only been to church twice in the last year......) I AM looking for a new position yeah, my prof said that the cheek turning was about an insult or an affront, not a violent physical attack.... And he also said that Jesus told them to purchase a sword because he was preparing them for his abscence.....

July 11th, 2006, 10:10 PM	#57
GoodSamaritan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 791	This thread has been a big encouragement to me. I can scarcely believe the number of ministers who carry. For a long time I thought I was pretty much all alone. God bless each and everyone of you guys.

September 19th, 2006, 02:09 AM	#60
davyray Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 124	I am a deacon in my church (Baptist) and I carry regularly. I have occasionally wondered why at church, then a news stroy pops up about a church shooting. Evidently no one told the bad guy that a chuch is supposed to be a sanctuary, free from that kind of stuff! George, I agree on the point of "turning the other cheek." Recently I have been mentored by my pastor regarding hermeneutics, for which I could not be more grateful. I have always believed that the scripture was pretty black and white, but could never before quite explain why some people's "interpretation of the scripture" (I personally detest that phrase) didn't really fly. Now I'm learning how to really explain it simply and logically. A related point that gets my gander is the camp that says, "if it is all part of God's plan, there is nothing we can do to change the coming events." I really don't read anywhere in the scripture that God wants us christians to be a bunch of pacifists and take whatever evil comes our way. Rather we are to stand and fight, with the primary battle being of spiritual nature "with the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Right before that, Paul says that our struggle is "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of THIS DARK WORLD..." (emphasis mine). This tells me the battle against evil does meet us in the physical world. I believe we should fight here too. A wise man (who happened to be Jewish) once told me something that I not only try to live by, but have passed on to many others. "You don't have to be a barbarian to be a warrior." We christians can live Godly lives as servant leaders, full of kindness, mercy, and love and still be fierce warriors in the the struggle against evil. I think that is one of many things that makes us different in this world. Thanks for your thread, Dave.