Good: We need more churchs like this (Merged X 3) - Page 5

TucAzRider · June 8th, 2009, 03:28 PM

That is just stupid,. Carrying a unloaded weapon anyway is just plain dumb.. It was all good until I read that part, Like someone said, ya would do better with a hammer,.. I WILL NOT be disarmed, specially in church,..

PM · June 8th, 2009, 04:58 PM

Well I see at least two people of my oppinion --- why have them bring them just to unlaod them!! The only way to prevent a church shooting is to:
1) have a loaded gun
2) have that gun concealed!!

But least they will have security, hopefully armed!!

JonInNY · June 26th, 2009, 11:49 AM

Yes, folks. Even here in democratic, liberal NY, the NY Times carries an article like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us...0church&st=cse

June 26, 2009
Pastor Urges His Flock to Bring Guns to Church
By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE
LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights. He shoots regularly at the local firing range, and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.” And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it.

“God and guns were part of the foundation of this country,” Mr. Pagano, 49, said Wednesday in the small brick Assembly of God church, where a large wooden cross hung over the altar and two American flags jutted from side walls. “I don’t see any contradiction in this. Not every Christian denomination is pacifist.”

The bring-your-gun-to-church day, which will include a $1 raffle of a handgun, firearms safety lessons and a picnic, is another sign that the gun culture in the United States is thriving despite, or perhaps because of, President Obama’s election in November.

Last year, the National Rifle Association ran a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign against Mr. Obama, stoking fears that he would be the most antigun president in history and that firearms would be confiscated. One worry was that a Democratic president and Congress would reinstitute the assault-weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

But there is little support for the ban. Mr. Obama and his party have largely ignored gun-control issues, and the president even signed a measure that will allow firearms in national parks.

Still, the fear remains that Mr. Obama, and his attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., will crack down on guns sooner or later. That — along with the faltering economy, which gun sellers say has spurred purchases for self-defense — has fueled a record surge in gun sales.

“Every president wants to be re-elected, and gun bans are pretty much a nonstarter for getting re-elected,” said Win Underwood, owner of the Bluegrass Indoor Range here. “What I suspect is going to happen is, Obama’s going to cool his jets until he can get re-elected, and then he’ll start building his legacy in these hot-button areas.”

When Mr. Obama was elected in November, federal instant background checks, the best indicator of gun sales, jumped 42 percent over the previous November. Every month since then, the number of checks has been higher than the year before, although the postelection surge may be tapering off, as all surges eventually do. While the number of checks in April increased 30 percent from the year before, the number of checks in May (1,023,102) was only 15 percent higher than in May 2008.

The National Rifle Association says its membership is up 30 percent since November. And several states have recently passed laws allowing gun owners to carry firearms in more places — bars, restaurants, cars and parks.

“We have a very active agenda in all 50 states,” said Chris W. Cox, legislative director of the N.R.A., widely considered the country’s most powerful lobby. “We have right-to-carry laws in over 40 states; 20 years ago, it was in just six.”

Of the 40 states with right-to-carry laws, 20 allow guns in churches.

Public attitudes also seem to be turning more sympathetic to gun owners. In April, the Pew Research Center found for the first time that almost as many people said it was more important to protect the rights of gun owners (45 percent) than to control gun ownership (49 percent). Just a year ago, Pew said, 58 percent said gun control was more important than the rights of gun owners (37 percent).

Gun-control advocates say they feel increasingly ineffective, especially after a recent spate of high-profile shootings, including last month’s murder, inside a church in Kansas, of a doctor who performed late-term abortions.

“We’ve definitely been marginalized,” said Pam Gersh, a public relations consultant here who helped organize a rally in Louisville in 2000, to coincide with the Million Mom March against guns in Washington.

“The Brady Campaign and other similar organizations who advocate sensible gun responsibility laws don’t have the money and the political power — not even close,” she said. “This pastor is obviously crossing a line here and saying ‘I can even take my guns to church, and there is nothing you can do about it.’ ”

Ms. Gersh said she was not aware that a group of local churches and peace activists were staging a counterpicnic — called “Bring your peaceful heart, leave your gun at home” — at the same time as Mr. Pagano’s event.

But news media attention — some from overseas — has focused on Mr. Pagano, who has been planning the event for a year, in celebration of the Fourth of July. Cameras will not be allowed in the church, he said, to protect the congregation’s privacy.

The celebration will feature lessons in responsible gun ownership, Mr. Pagano said. Sheriff’s deputies will be at the doors to check that openly carried firearms are unloaded, but they will not check for concealed weapons.

“That’s the whole point of concealed,” Mr. Pagano said, adding that he was not worried because such owners require training.

Mr. Pagano said the church’s insurance company, which he would not identify, had canceled the church’s policy for the day on Saturday and told him that it would cancel the policy for good at the end of the year. If he cannot find insurance for Saturday, people will not be allowed in openly carrying their guns.

Arkansas and Georgia recently rejected efforts to allow people to carry concealed weapons in church. Watching the debate in Arkansas was John Phillips, pastor of the Central Church of Christ in Little Rock. In 1986, Mr. Phillips was preaching in a different church there when a gunman shot him and a parishioner. Both survived, but Mr. Phillips, 51, still has a bullet lodged in his spine.

In a telephone interview, he said he found the idea of “packing in the pew” abhorrent.

“There is a movement afoot across the nation, with the gun lobby pushing the envelope, trying to allow concealed weapons to be carried in places where they used to be prohibited — churches, schools, bars,” Mr. Phillips said.

“I don’t understand how any minister who is familiar with the teachings of the Bible can do this,” he added. “Jesus didn’t say, ‘Go ahead, make my day.’ ”

Mr. Pagano takes such comments as a challenge to his faith and says they make him more determined.

“When someone from within the church tells me that being a Christian and having firearms are contradictions, that they’re incompatible with the Gospel — baloney,” he said. “As soon as you start saying that it’s not something that Christians do, well, guns are just the foil. The issue now is the Gospel. So in a sense, it does become a crusade. Now the Gospel is at stake.”

retsupt99 · June 26th, 2009, 11:58 AM

Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights. He shoots regularly at the local firing range, and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.” And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it...

Congrats to this pastor, at least he didn't require people to bring unloaded guns as did another pastor a while back.
I wonder why this would be something an insurance company would need to know about. Perhaps the pastor should promote this practice with a little more discretion.

Stay armed...even in church, in FL we can...stay safe!

crzy4guns · June 26th, 2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retsupt99

Stay armed...even in church, in FL we can...stay safe!

I sure wish we could in Kansas.

Good news is that I will soon be moving to Florida in a couple of years.

HotGuns · June 26th, 2009, 12:16 PM

As for Arkansas, there was treachery involved in not getting carry in the churces passed, and some parties that were quilty of such ought to be hung for high crimes and treason.

That's all I'm gonna say about that.

packinnova · June 26th, 2009, 02:22 PM

He must have been reading from a completely different bible than I did... Sure he may not have used those exact words, but he didn't say to roll over and die either.

Quote:

Arkansas and Georgia recently rejected efforts to allow people to carry concealed weapons in church. Watching the debate in Arkansas was John Phillips, pastor of the Central Church of Christ in Little Rock. In 1986, Mr. Phillips was preaching in a different church there when a gunman shot him and a parishioner. Both survived, but Mr. Phillips, 51, still has a bullet lodged in his spine.

In a telephone interview, he said he found the idea of “packing in the pew” abhorrent.

“There is a movement afoot across the nation, with the gun lobby pushing the envelope, trying to allow concealed weapons to be carried in places where they used to be prohibited — churches, schools, bars,” Mr. Phillips said.

“I don’t understand how any minister who is familiar with the teachings of the Bible can do this,” he added. “Jesus didn’t say, ‘Go ahead, make my day.’ ”

cmb · June 26th, 2009, 02:37 PM

I don't mind replying to this as I have given it alot of thought since I am a pastor. I have drawn my line so that if one wants to attack me physically or vebally because of my faith and my belief in Jesus Christ I will accept what ever for the sake of the gospel in a martyr situation. However, if a lunatic with a gun, or someone off their meds picks my family or my church at random with no regard or reasoning (this seems to be the case most of the time in western culture, there is no resoning with people in this state of mind) then I feel the right to protect myself, my family and my congregation. I feel I have the upper hand because I see what is going on in the congregation so the element of suprise is in my favor. To die for no reason is just a statistic. We are also to protect from injustice and Old Testament laws are valid and still the basis of our country. It is a touchy situation and many may disagree, perhaps as many as agree. I have already told my church that there will never be an object lesson (I use these often) which involves anything resembling a real weapon, and if someone sees one to take appropriate action. We have had some distrubances but never an escalation of any kind.

alienbogey · June 26th, 2009, 09:35 PM

"Well, a gun that's unloaded ain't good for nuthin'."

John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn in True Grit

Holdcard · June 27th, 2009, 04:52 PM

Churches Official Site

I can appreciate what he's trying to do as far as raising awareness. But I would not attend with empty firearms. It's only my opinion but he's celebrating the right to carry gun shaped clubs, not firearms.

I can appreciate the safety concerns and would agree to designated safety areas where people can handle, discuss and train people in the safety aspects as well as having a safe place to show off your firearm.

It seems kind of hypocritical to celebrate the right to bear arms, while not actually allowing people to bear arms. An unloaded gun does not really count as bearing arms to me. When I exercise my right to bear arms, they are loaded and ready to go.

Holdcard

June 8th, 2009, 03:28 PM	#41
TucAzRider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Tucson Posts: 792	That is just stupid,. Carrying a unloaded weapon anyway is just plain dumb.. It was all good until I read that part, Like someone said, ya would do better with a hammer,.. I WILL NOT be disarmed, specially in church,.. __________________

June 26th, 2009, 11:49 AM	#43
JonInNY VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley New York State Posts: 3,329	NY Times: Pastor Urges His Flock to Bring Guns to Church Yes, folks. Even here in democratic, liberal NY, the NY Times carries an article like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us...0church&st=cse June 26, 2009 Pastor Urges His Flock to Bring Guns to Church By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights. He shoots regularly at the local firing range, and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.” And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it. “God and guns were part of the foundation of this country,” Mr. Pagano, 49, said Wednesday in the small brick Assembly of God church, where a large wooden cross hung over the altar and two American flags jutted from side walls. “I don’t see any contradiction in this. Not every Christian denomination is pacifist.” The bring-your-gun-to-church day, which will include a $1 raffle of a handgun, firearms safety lessons and a picnic, is another sign that the gun culture in the United States is thriving despite, or perhaps because of, President Obama’s election in November. Last year, the National Rifle Association ran a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign against Mr. Obama, stoking fears that he would be the most antigun president in history and that firearms would be confiscated. One worry was that a Democratic president and Congress would reinstitute the assault-weapons ban, which expired in 2004. But there is little support for the ban. Mr. Obama and his party have largely ignored gun-control issues, and the president even signed a measure that will allow firearms in national parks. Still, the fear remains that Mr. Obama, and his attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., will crack down on guns sooner or later. That — along with the faltering economy, which gun sellers say has spurred purchases for self-defense — has fueled a record surge in gun sales. “Every president wants to be re-elected, and gun bans are pretty much a nonstarter for getting re-elected,” said Win Underwood, owner of the Bluegrass Indoor Range here. “What I suspect is going to happen is, Obama’s going to cool his jets until he can get re-elected, and then he’ll start building his legacy in these hot-button areas.” When Mr. Obama was elected in November, federal instant background checks, the best indicator of gun sales, jumped 42 percent over the previous November. Every month since then, the number of checks has been higher than the year before, although the postelection surge may be tapering off, as all surges eventually do. While the number of checks in April increased 30 percent from the year before, the number of checks in May (1,023,102) was only 15 percent higher than in May 2008. The National Rifle Association says its membership is up 30 percent since November. And several states have recently passed laws allowing gun owners to carry firearms in more places — bars, restaurants, cars and parks. “We have a very active agenda in all 50 states,” said Chris W. Cox, legislative director of the N.R.A., widely considered the country’s most powerful lobby. “We have right-to-carry laws in over 40 states; 20 years ago, it was in just six.” Of the 40 states with right-to-carry laws, 20 allow guns in churches. Public attitudes also seem to be turning more sympathetic to gun owners. In April, the Pew Research Center found for the first time that almost as many people said it was more important to protect the rights of gun owners (45 percent) than to control gun ownership (49 percent). Just a year ago, Pew said, 58 percent said gun control was more important than the rights of gun owners (37 percent). Gun-control advocates say they feel increasingly ineffective, especially after a recent spate of high-profile shootings, including last month’s murder, inside a church in Kansas, of a doctor who performed late-term abortions. “We’ve definitely been marginalized,” said Pam Gersh, a public relations consultant here who helped organize a rally in Louisville in 2000, to coincide with the Million Mom March against guns in Washington. “The Brady Campaign and other similar organizations who advocate sensible gun responsibility laws don’t have the money and the political power — not even close,” she said. “This pastor is obviously crossing a line here and saying ‘I can even take my guns to church, and there is nothing you can do about it.’ ” Ms. Gersh said she was not aware that a group of local churches and peace activists were staging a counterpicnic — called “Bring your peaceful heart, leave your gun at home” — at the same time as Mr. Pagano’s event. But news media attention — some from overseas — has focused on Mr. Pagano, who has been planning the event for a year, in celebration of the Fourth of July. Cameras will not be allowed in the church, he said, to protect the congregation’s privacy. The celebration will feature lessons in responsible gun ownership, Mr. Pagano said. Sheriff’s deputies will be at the doors to check that openly carried firearms are unloaded, but they will not check for concealed weapons. “That’s the whole point of concealed,” Mr. Pagano said, adding that he was not worried because such owners require training. Mr. Pagano said the church’s insurance company, which he would not identify, had canceled the church’s policy for the day on Saturday and told him that it would cancel the policy for good at the end of the year. If he cannot find insurance for Saturday, people will not be allowed in openly carrying their guns. Arkansas and Georgia recently rejected efforts to allow people to carry concealed weapons in church. Watching the debate in Arkansas was John Phillips, pastor of the Central Church of Christ in Little Rock. In 1986, Mr. Phillips was preaching in a different church there when a gunman shot him and a parishioner. Both survived, but Mr. Phillips, 51, still has a bullet lodged in his spine. In a telephone interview, he said he found the idea of “packing in the pew” abhorrent. “There is a movement afoot across the nation, with the gun lobby pushing the envelope, trying to allow concealed weapons to be carried in places where they used to be prohibited — churches, schools, bars,” Mr. Phillips said. “I don’t understand how any minister who is familiar with the teachings of the Bible can do this,” he added. “Jesus didn’t say, ‘Go ahead, make my day.’ ” Mr. Pagano takes such comments as a challenge to his faith and says they make him more determined. “When someone from within the church tells me that being a Christian and having firearms are contradictions, that they’re incompatible with the Gospel — baloney,” he said. “As soon as you start saying that it’s not something that Christians do, well, guns are just the foil. The issue now is the Gospel. So in a sense, it does become a crusade. Now the Gospel is at stake.” __________________ "... I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul." -- William Ernest Henley: Invictus

June 26th, 2009, 11:58 AM	#44
retsupt99 VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 22,392	Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights. He shoots regularly at the local firing range, and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.” And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it... Congrats to this pastor, at least he didn't require people to bring unloaded guns as did another pastor a while back. I wonder why this would be something an insurance company would need to know about. Perhaps the pastor should promote this practice with a little more discretion. Stay armed...even in church, in FL we can...stay safe! __________________ "That I cannot do." "Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks." *********************************** NRA Life Member

June 26th, 2009, 12:16 PM	#46
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,505	As for Arkansas, there was treachery involved in not getting carry in the churces passed, and some parties that were quilty of such ought to be hung for high crimes and treason. That's all I'm gonna say about that. __________________ AR. CHL Instr. To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson

June 26th, 2009, 09:35 PM	#49
alienbogey Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Puget Sound Area Posts: 107	"Well, a gun that's unloaded ain't good for nuthin'." John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn in True Grit __________________ Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

June 8th, 2009, 04:58 PM	#42
PM Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 288	Well I see at least two people of my oppinion --- why have them bring them just to unlaod them!! The only way to prevent a church shooting is to: 1) have a loaded gun 2) have that gun concealed!! But least they will have security, hopefully armed!!

June 26th, 2009, 02:37 PM	#48
cmb Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: florida Posts: 338	I don't mind replying to this as I have given it alot of thought since I am a pastor. I have drawn my line so that if one wants to attack me physically or vebally because of my faith and my belief in Jesus Christ I will accept what ever for the sake of the gospel in a martyr situation. However, if a lunatic with a gun, or someone off their meds picks my family or my church at random with no regard or reasoning (this seems to be the case most of the time in western culture, there is no resoning with people in this state of mind) then I feel the right to protect myself, my family and my congregation. I feel I have the upper hand because I see what is going on in the congregation so the element of suprise is in my favor. To die for no reason is just a statistic. We are also to protect from injustice and Old Testament laws are valid and still the basis of our country. It is a touchy situation and many may disagree, perhaps as many as agree. I have already told my church that there will never be an object lesson (I use these often) which involves anything resembling a real weapon, and if someone sees one to take appropriate action. We have had some distrubances but never an escalation of any kind.

June 27th, 2009, 04:52 PM	#50
Holdcard Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Phoenix, Az. Posts: 447	Churches Official Site I can appreciate what he's trying to do as far as raising awareness. But I would not attend with empty firearms. It's only my opinion but he's celebrating the right to carry gun shaped clubs, not firearms. I can appreciate the safety concerns and would agree to designated safety areas where people can handle, discuss and train people in the safety aspects as well as having a safe place to show off your firearm. It seems kind of hypocritical to celebrate the right to bear arms, while not actually allowing people to bear arms. An unloaded gun does not really count as bearing arms to me. When I exercise my right to bear arms, they are loaded and ready to go. Holdcard __________________ If You Want To POPULATE Heaven You Have To PLUNDER Hell!! 4th Man Ministries

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