Va. OC in Bars Question - Page 2

SIGP250 · August 29th, 2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jofrdo

Don't trust strangers at bars for legal advice, trust strangers on the online forum. In Virginia, it is illegal to carry concealed, even if you have a CHP, into any establishment that serves alcohol by the single drink for on-premises consumption, and it doesn't matter if you drink or not. There is no law prohibitting open carry into such an establishment, and also no law prohibiting the consumption of alcohol while open carrying in such an establishment. There is a prohibition against being intoxicated while carrying a firearm, so drink a minimal amount.

While several states are technically "Open Carry" including Virginia and my state Missouri, there are exceptions. Most states that permit or endorse concealed carry also have provisions in the law That allow for any town, village, city or county to enact local ordnances that may prohibit open carry and or carry into certain types of establishments, particularly bars and restaurants. It is advised that you become familiar with your local jurisdiction.

celticredneck · August 29th, 2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP250

While several states are technically "Open Carry" including Virginia and my state Missouri, there are exceptions. Most states that permit or endorse concealed carry also have provisions in the law That allow for any town, village, city or county to enact local ordnances that may prohibit open carry and or carry into certain types of establishments, particularly bars and restaurants. It is advised that you become familiar with your local jurisdiction.

Virginia has a "preemption law" which prohibits any locality from passing and or enforcing laws which go against the state laws. And, just one other point, Virginia does not have bars. Legally, no one can have an establishment which serves either alcohol only, or one that has their majority income from alcohol. Restaurants are allowed to serve alcoholic drinks though. For now, open carry is the only legal way to carry in those establishments, thus the "Va Tuck". The restaurants may post signs saying "no guns" and may ask you to leave or stow your gun in your vehicle even without a sign, but the city or county may not do so. There have been several lawsuits won against cities in the tidewater area because of state preemption.

SIGP250 · August 29th, 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celticredneck

Virginia has a "preemption law" which prohibits any locality from passing and or enforcing laws which go against the state laws. And, just one other point, Virginia does not have bars. Legally, no one can have an establishment which serves either alcohol only, or one that has their majority income from alcohol. Restaurants are allowed to serve alcoholic drinks though. For now, open carry is the only legal way to carry in those establishments, thus the "Va Tuck". The restaurants may post signs saying "no guns" and may ask you to leave or stow your gun in your vehicle even without a sign, but the city or county may not do so. There have been several lawsuits won against cities in the tidewater area because of state preemption.

I don't want to get into a debate and I am not a lawyer but as an 01-FFL I do know and observe state laws. VIRGINIA state code is published and available from ATF.

Title 15.2 Counties, Cites and Towns; Chapter 9 General Powers of Local Governments; section 15.2-915. This section does appear to make the law state wide, however there are almost always exceptions. As I read further, Chapter 12, general Powers and Procedures of Counties, Section 15.2-1209.1, Can and does allow local jurisdictions to regulate carrying of loaded firearms on public highways.

This is only one relevant example of an exception that does override state law.

If you can't get from point A to B, by exception of the law, then how can you carry in a restaurant or any other place?

Riana · August 29th, 2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP250

I don't want to get into a debate and I am not a lawyer but as an 01-FFL I do know and observe state laws. VIRGINIA state code is published and available from ATF.

Title 15.2 Counties, Cites and Towns; Chapter 9 General Powers of Local Governments; section 15.2-915. This section does appear to make the law state wide, however there are almost always exceptions. As I read further, Chapter 12, general Powers and Procedures of Counties, Section 15.2-1209.1, Can and does allow local jurisdictions to regulate carrying of loaded firearms on public highways.

This is only one relevant example of an exception that does override state law.

If you can't get from point A to B, by exception of the law, then how can you carry in a restaurant or any other place?

First, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the Internet.

The very end of that section reads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Section 15-2, 1209.1

The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons carrying loaded firearms in moving vehicles or for purposes other than hunting, or to persons acting at the time in defense of persons or property.

The way I read it, the only time a locality can regulate/restrict firearms is with regard to hunting, and publicly-maintained roads, and of course, discharge of said firearms.

DaveH · August 29th, 2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riana

First, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the Internet.

The way I read it, the only time a locality can regulate/restrict firearms is with regard to hunting, and publicly-maintained roads, and of course, discharge of said firearms.

↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑

Quote:

§ 15.2-1209.1. Counties may regulate carrying of loaded firearms on public highways.

The governing body of any county is hereby empowered to adopt ordinances making it unlawful for any person to carry or have in his possession, for the purpose of hunting, while on any part of a public highway within such county a loaded firearm when such person is not authorized to hunt on the private property on both sides of the highway along which he is standing or walking; and to provide a penalty for violation of such ordinance not to exceed a fine of $100. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons carrying loaded firearms in moving vehicles or for purposes other than hunting, or to persons acting at the time in defense of persons or property. [Emphasis added.]

And

Quote:

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.

Virginia State Government has preempted the regulations of firearms, save a very limited authority applicable only to "hunting."

jofrdo · August 29th, 2009, 11:21 PM

So if our OP is hunting moose at the Moose Lodge, he's got to be aware of the local ordinances that apply only to hunters if he intends to open carry while drinking beer there? You guys really highjacked that thread!

DaveH · August 30th, 2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jofrdo

You guys really highjacked that thread!

Not really.

The issue raised by SIGP250 that claimed the Virgina's preemption had holes in it that might apply to drinking in the the Moose Club while OCing

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP250

That allow for any town, village, city or county to enact local ordnances that may prohibit open carry and or carry into certain types of establishments, particularly bars and restaurants. It is advised that you become familiar with your local jurisdiction. [Emphasis added]

is very related and just took some back and forth to deal with.

Fortunately, there is no enforceable restriction (State or Local) on drinking while OCing in Virginia.

Now, were you to "Virginia Tuck" while in the Moose Club and then convert back to CC when you come out, you could fall under:

Quote:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

....

J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

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August 29th, 2009, 11:21 PM	#16
jofrdo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Chesapeake, Virginia Posts: 646	So if our OP is hunting moose at the Moose Lodge, he's got to be aware of the local ordinances that apply only to hunters if he intends to open carry while drinking beer there? You guys really highjacked that thread!