Gun Bearer Has Pointed Discussion With Police Officer - Page 10

HotGuns · October 19th, 2009, 09:21 PM

I dont think that the cop acted wrongly. I think he made an assessment, understood that there was no threat, and moved on. The was no "got out of hand " here.

What he did was correct course of action. He then restarted the conversation with the person he was talking to first.

Thanis · October 19th, 2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotGuns

I dont think that the cop acted wrongly. I think he made an assessment, understood that there was no threat, and moved on. The was no "got out of hand " here.

What he did was correct course of action. He then restarted the conversation with the person he was talking to first.

+1

Neither party was perfectly eloquent, but was a piece of real life, unscripted. IMO neither did anything outside the norm of acceptable behaviour. Raised voices, NBD.

HotGuns · October 19th, 2009, 09:59 PM

Thats right. Both of them could have been a bit more articulate with the communications skills but they worked. Because of it, people are divided in the the cop is the jerk ,the cellphone video guy is a jerk camp.

Just a little bit of communication skills on either part can go a long way.

jbum · October 19th, 2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob P.

Ok, I watched the video. I read every post in this thread. I waited until now to post after thinking about what I wanted to say.

Some of you who have posted in this thread are wrong. You know you are wrong but you are refusing to admit it. So you are continuing to push your incorrect views forward to avoid having to face that truth.

The video shows this:

1) A cop was talking to someone (citizen 1 ) about potential trespass. WHERE is not important to the discussion. Especially if this did not occur in "your" home state where the laws are different.

2) An uninvolved person (citizen 2) walks up and start to film the interaction between the cop and citizen 1. There is NOTHING "wrong" or "illegal" or "idiotic" about this. This happens all the time and can be the basis for news coverage for oppressive acts by the gov. We ENCOURAGE this because it keeps gov on its toes and on the straight and narrow.

3) The cop notices that citizen 2 is OC'ing a firearm. The cop immediately breaks off his interview with citizen 1 and begins to question citizen 2 about ID. Citizen 2 does NOT have to show ID by law.

4) Cop realizes that he is in the wrong and ends interview with citizen 2. However, at the end of the interview cop says something which can be misconstrued as citizen 2 being "detained."

5) Citizen 2 follows cop and asks the question "am I being detained" repeatedly because cop is not responding. Citizen 2 is REQUIRED to ask this question in order to know if he is free to leave without legal repercussion. Again, this is NOT "idiotic" or the act of a "moron." I (and I'm positive you do also) need to know if I am free to leave at the end of any encounter with LEO. If I am unsure I WILL ask until I have assured myself that I am free to leave by either the cop leaving first, the cop telling me I can go, or the cop ignoring my repeated questions to the point only a dimwit wouldn't understand and further questioning would lead to arrest for interfering with an officer in the performance of his duties.

So, given those FACTS citizen 2 did nothing moronic in the video. Cop started on the wrong course of action, caught himself, and fixed his mistake before it got out of hand.

My only remaining question is whether anyone else saw the car drive over the curb/sidewalk when making a left turn?

well
said rob!!!!!!

dougwg · October 20th, 2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotGuns

Thats right. Both of them could have been a bit more articulate with the communications skills but they worked. Because of it, people are divided in the the cop is the jerk ,the cellphone video guy is a jerk camp.

Just a little bit of communication skills on either part can go a long way.

The problem with your statement is that the cop is the one with the power and the TRAINING in how to handle situations like this.

It's like an adult having an altercation with a minor. It matters little who is in the right. The adult should know better and YES, should be held to a higher standard. It's part of the job, deal with it. BTW: I have ran this by 3 LEO's, My uncle (retired Chief with over 30 years on the job) my cousin with nearly 15 years on the job and a close family friend with over 20 years on the job. They agree with me.

Back to the power thing:
The cop has ALL the power here. He can detain, arrest, harass whatever he wants with complete immunity. If he arrest this man the man could very well go broke, lose his job, his house and his dog trying to defend against trumped up charges.

When all is said and done the cop still has his job and has lost ZERO (probably made some overtime going to court), meanwhile the OC has lost damn near everything for doing NOTHING illegal.

The cop was in the wrong, period.
The OC is a patriot that deserves our admiration and respect.

JD · October 20th, 2009, 11:41 AM

I retract my previous statement, the guy is not a moron, he definitely knows his laws and his rights.

However...

He was not going about "daily" business, unless your daily business go to an abortion clinic and try to persuade people not to get an abortion.

Him and his friends have been there before and had run-ins with the PD.

Abortion clinics can be places where violence occurs. And while the guy in the video makes a worth while argument that OC'ing may PREVENT violence as his friends have had rocks thrown at them...at the same time introducing a visible firearm in a possibly volatile situation IMHO is not a good idea. Obviously, the place where they were at was not such an occasion, but it could have been, you never know.

Some would say that by OC'ing he was actively trying to intimidate women from obtaining "services" looking at it from that perspective, he would be bullying them out of their legal rights, who's the jack-booted thug now?

**On a side note, there was previous mention of the KKK, while I understand the point that was trying to be made, that was a little strong, just like referring to LEOS as jack-booted thugs is a little strong. Neither comment will fly here again.

The guy in the video made a tactical decision to OC to an event where the likelihood of LEO intervention was above average based on the fact that they have had interactions with them at that location before. He knows (or rather I would hope that he knows) that LEOs aren't always aware of the law regarding OC. He made a decision to take a visible firearm to a type of place where in the past people have been assaulted and some have been shot. A responding LEO to such a location might very well be wary of one carrying a gun.

On the subject of the video and his friends being harassed I offer the following from OCDO

Quote:

I didn't "know" they were getting harassed when I first walked up but deductive reasoning told me it was very likely they were because I watched them from far off for about 10-15 min. before I approached.

I put "Harassed" in the title because after the fact I "KNEW" that they had been harassed.

So the harassment is hearsay, we don't know what was said in that 10-15 minutes before hand. We have no FOI data to show any recording from the officers, or from the call was placed to get them there. I'd like to hear them no matter what they say, if the dash cam was rolling, odds are there's audio to go with it.

Regarding the officers actions, if he was unaware of the OC law, he was set straight. Everyone should be happy that he went away educated and no-one's rights were violated, no one was forced to hand over ID, no one was disarmed, no one was cuffed and stuck in a squad car.

We keep seeing this over and over again. Is anyone surprised that officers are not up to speed on firearms laws? Sure they're cops, "They're supposed to know everything" and in a perfect world they would, but the motor vehicle code book is about 2" thick and it's thin paper. Shouldn't we as licensed drivers be responsible for memorizing the vehicle code? I don't think so. I'll be sure to ask how much time is spent in the academy, and during field training on legally armed persons, I bet it's not much.

How many more times do we need to see these videos before it sinks in that cops don't know everything? Why are we still surprised by this? After reading about Greg Rotz, Rich (Pa. Patriot) getting arrested, Melanie Hain's incident with the Lebanon Co. Sheriff, the many incidents in VA, recent incidents in AZ and WI...the list could keep going. While "word" is spreading, it's not filtered all around the country just yet and that's something everyone who does or wants to OC needs to comprehend.

An incident involving LEOs most likely will happen at some point, whether at a gas station, a restaurant, a soccer game, and yes even an anti-abortion event. This should be expected. And if it does happen, you should be prepared for what to say and how to act.

We see it here time and time again where we talk about:

Situational awareness
Situational avoidance
Deescalation

The guy in the video get's an "A" for awareness, but inserted himself in the situation just because he thought it was "likely" his friends were getting harassed. Once the situation started, he did OK with de-escalation. Being the Monday morning QB I think he could of done better, but don't we all think that after an altercation? I think TN_Mike would agree after his run-in with his neighbor. I know I thought the same thing after my blunder of a traffic stop, but even in that case being polite and courteous paid off. I got an apology from an officer without having to talk to his superior or writing letters, or posting video from my cell phone to the internet. And after the event, I did call his superior and voiced my concerns.

So here's the thick of it (too late) the guy made a choice to open carry to place where it was likely to get some LEO attention. He got it. Should the cop have acted more professional? Sure, but until you're the guy facing off with someone else who's an armed unknown, you just don't know how you'll act.

dougwg · October 20th, 2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD

good post

I agree with you.

fox2102 · October 20th, 2009, 01:56 PM

I'll probably get flamed for this but...

A lot of you talk about standing up for your rights but how many of you are willing to be arrested or go to jail for them? The guy in the video stood up. Maybe OCing was risky but he had the guts to say i have the right to do this and i'm not afraid to use it. I admire anyone who has the guts to stand up and risk everything for what they believe. Reguardless of how misplaced i think their cause is

bwhunter65 · October 20th, 2009, 02:17 PM

In my opinion he is one luck dude. This is why in NC it is against the law to have a gun at any demonstration doesn't mater if you are part of it or just watching. apparently the cop got flustered and lost his thought or just wasn't on his game. He could of easily lost his right to carry trying to protect some else's rights. I read his post on another forum he new it was a protest so he wasn't there just by accident guy was just trying to push the cops buttons.

bwhunter65 · October 20th, 2009, 04:54 PM

found the guy that took the video on another forum he new it was a protest he went there to protest with them. And plans on going there again see if he takes his gun he was told he was breaking the law by being there with a weapon. His attitude was he would go to court to prove he can carry.

October 19th, 2009, 09:21 PM	#91
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,609	I dont think that the cop acted wrongly. I think he made an assessment, understood that there was no threat, and moved on. The was no "got out of hand " here. What he did was correct course of action. He then restarted the conversation with the person he was talking to first. __________________ AR. CHL Instr. To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson

October 19th, 2009, 09:59 PM	#93
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,609	Thats right. Both of them could have been a bit more articulate with the communications skills but they worked. Because of it, people are divided in the the cop is the jerk ,the cellphone video guy is a jerk camp. Just a little bit of communication skills on either part can go a long way. __________________ AR. CHL Instr. To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson

October 20th, 2009, 02:17 PM	#99
bwhunter65 Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NC Posts: 43	lucky guy In my opinion he is one luck dude. This is why in NC it is against the law to have a gun at any demonstration doesn't mater if you are part of it or just watching. apparently the cop got flustered and lost his thought or just wasn't on his game. He could of easily lost his right to carry trying to protect some else's rights. I read his post on another forum he new it was a protest so he wasn't there just by accident guy was just trying to push the cops buttons.

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October 20th, 2009, 01:56 PM	#98
fox2102 Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: vestavia hills, AL Posts: 131	I'll probably get flamed for this but... A lot of you talk about standing up for your rights but how many of you are willing to be arrested or go to jail for them? The guy in the video stood up. Maybe OCing was risky but he had the guts to say i have the right to do this and i'm not afraid to use it. I admire anyone who has the guts to stand up and risk everything for what they believe. Reguardless of how misplaced i think their cause is

October 20th, 2009, 04:54 PM	#100
bwhunter65 Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NC Posts: 43	found the guy that took the video on another forum he new it was a protest he went there to protest with them. And plans on going there again see if he takes his gun he was told he was breaking the law by being there with a weapon. His attitude was he would go to court to prove he can carry.