The biggest problem with flashlights. - Page 3

fed_wif_a_sig · September 16th, 2007, 11:29 PM

Interesting idea for the post, and interesting logic....it has been "discussed" during many a police acadamy. However there is one simple flawed logic...there is not a single documented case of an officer (or soldier) ever being hit because of the light in his hand or mounted to the weapon.

Another point that is missed, is this, most tactical lights (Surefire type) in that situation would provide a blinding to the person at the end of it, preventing them from properly "aiming" at the light. In a warehouse or large open area, I can see it, but having run many a many a tactical exercise and talked to many on the receiving end of a dynamic approach using weapons lights, the blinding effect and positive identification allowed far and again outweights the possibility that a suspect might be able to put a round at your weapon area.

On the other side, there are many a case of mistaken identity shootings that have ruined the lives of homeowners and officers who did not have a light and simply put shot someone they would not have shot if they had hit them with a light before they hit them with lead.

The most important part of a home defense weapon is the ability to identify what your shooting at...never know it might be your kid (even the ones that dont live at home sometimes come home unannounced --- that has happened in real life taking the life of the college student daughter, the marriage of her parents and the sanity of the father).

Your call, but I'll tell you this, no jury will buy the defense that you were scared of being shot because you used a light, because it hust has not happened, yet the other has.

clipse · September 17th, 2007, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XD 45

I reccomend to the author of this tread to get a surefire G2 if you want a light

In your other thread about flashlights, I stated that I have a Surefire G2L on the way. I have several flashlights to choose from anyway though.

oilman · September 17th, 2007, 10:15 PM

Training is the key.

Here is an example

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...10/pgname/Home

peacefuljeffrey · September 25th, 2007, 04:43 AM

I get the sense that in the shotgun pic, there is too much body presented from the doorway. Sixto was on the mark, there.

Tangle · September 25th, 2007, 10:03 AM

You have pointed out what the BG sees when you use a light. But the mitigating circumstances have not been defined. E.g. is there enough light to see and identify a threat without using a flashlight? Can you see clearly enough to see that he has a camera in his hand instead of a weapon?

So if you can identify a threat AND sufficient details, i.e. you can see without using a flashlight, and that doesn't mean a dim silhouette, then don't use the flashlight. If you can only see a silhouette and little if any details, you need to use a flashlight.

Other factors would include if the 'intruder' could be a family member that got hungry, sick, couldn't sleep, or if you are alone in the house.

The use of a flashlight doesn't depend on what the BG sees, but what you can see. And, you must be able to identify a person and what he has in his hands, etc. to verify whether the person is a threat or not.

BTW, the pics purportedly using cover illustrates one of the reasons I'm not overly fond of long guns for home defense. There's an awful lot of person still showing. If a handgun is properly used, all the BG should see is the gun, and half a head. Moreover, the inside walls of residential dwellings is not cover by any means, they are merely concealment.

SIXTO · September 25th, 2007, 11:39 AM

I see this thread has come back, so I'll join in.

Like I posted before, the biggest problem I see with lights is improper use. Yeah, I know, it sounds dumb... use of a light. What's to it, turn it on and look around. That sounds simple enough. Well, not really.

In most cases any of you guys will ever be faced with, why not flip the switch mounted on the wall? Think about that one. Why do you really need a flashlight in your own home? Your not hunting down the BG, you should be holed up waiting for the fight. If it scares him off, good. He already knows you are there.
Or leave it off, you should know the layout of your house better than the BG does. Use your torch only to ID just before you shoot, then MOVE!
I know that we are not talking about just inside your own home, but thats how the discussion has drifted. I'm not saying that a torch is not a important tool to have, I'm just saying that over use can be as bad as not having one at all.

That brings me to my main point. You can go down to your hardware store of choice, load up on every high end tool man has made. When you get home, are you now a carpenter? No, you're just just a guy who bought a lot of tools, and can waste a lot of wood.
Same applies to guns, tac lights etc. You got to not only know how to use them, but when.

Tangle · September 25th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Tactics have to be driven by the situation. For example in my house, if I'm holed up in my bedroom AND it's dark, the only light switch I have access to is my bedroom light. If I turn that light on, I mess up my night vision, I'm lit up, and the BG is in the dark.

So unless a light switch will light up the BG and his area, one would most likely be better off to use a flashlight - tactically.

SIXTO · September 25th, 2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangle

Tactics have to be driven by the situation. For example in my house, if I'm holed up in my bedroom AND it's dark, the only light switch I have access to is my bedroom light. If I turn that light on, I mess up my night vision, I'm lit up, and the BG is in the dark.

So unless a light switch will light up the BG and his area, one would most likely be better off to use a flashlight - tactically.

Exactly. Dont think a flashlight wont mess up your "night vision".

pgrass101 · September 25th, 2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Exactly. Dont think a flashlight wont mess up your "night vision".

Well if I beam a BG(s) is my house with my light then hopefully I disorient him long enough for me to engage. Then I would deactivate the light and relocate. Reacquire the BG(s) and start over again.

Actually since I will be calling 911 and not clearing my house but playing fort in my bedroom with my wife and son. I will just blast anything that comes through the doors that doesn't identify themselves first.

Tangle · September 25th, 2007, 01:59 PM

Yep, flashlights can mess up night vision, especially too bright of a flashlight. Something to keep in mind when considering a flashlight. But, we're stuck with room lights, or a flashlight. Flashlights can mess up night vision, but room lighting will for sure mess up night vision and can light you up as well. Plus, you can't turn room lights off and on unless you're willing to hang around the wall switch.

I would also have to move across the bedroom to the wall switch right at the doorway to turn the light on. That's not very appealling to me at all. Actually, my first choice, SITUATION PERMITTING, would be to hole up in my bedroom, place a flashlight on a piece of furniture, point it at the door way, turn it on and move to a safe position. The light would serve to both illuminate the doorway, and focus the BG's attention to the light.

Also, if your power is off, say during a storm, etc., room lights won't be an option. It'd sure be good to have and know how to use a flashlight.

September 16th, 2007, 11:29 PM	#21
fed_wif_a_sig Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Denton, TX Posts: 1,365	Interesting idea for the post, and interesting logic....it has been "discussed" during many a police acadamy. However there is one simple flawed logic...there is not a single documented case of an officer (or soldier) ever being hit because of the light in his hand or mounted to the weapon. Another point that is missed, is this, most tactical lights (Surefire type) in that situation would provide a blinding to the person at the end of it, preventing them from properly "aiming" at the light. In a warehouse or large open area, I can see it, but having run many a many a tactical exercise and talked to many on the receiving end of a dynamic approach using weapons lights, the blinding effect and positive identification allowed far and again outweights the possibility that a suspect might be able to put a round at your weapon area. On the other side, there are many a case of mistaken identity shootings that have ruined the lives of homeowners and officers who did not have a light and simply put shot someone they would not have shot if they had hit them with a light before they hit them with lead. The most important part of a home defense weapon is the ability to identify what your shooting at...never know it might be your kid (even the ones that dont live at home sometimes come home unannounced --- that has happened in real life taking the life of the college student daughter, the marriage of her parents and the sanity of the father). Your call, but I'll tell you this, no jury will buy the defense that you were scared of being shot because you used a light, because it hust has not happened, yet the other has. __________________ Steve "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

September 25th, 2007, 10:03 AM	#25
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 5,783	You have pointed out what the BG sees when you use a light. But the mitigating circumstances have not been defined. E.g. is there enough light to see and identify a threat without using a flashlight? Can you see clearly enough to see that he has a camera in his hand instead of a weapon? So if you can identify a threat AND sufficient details, i.e. you can see without using a flashlight, and that doesn't mean a dim silhouette, then don't use the flashlight. If you can only see a silhouette and little if any details, you need to use a flashlight. Other factors would include if the 'intruder' could be a family member that got hungry, sick, couldn't sleep, or if you are alone in the house. The use of a flashlight doesn't depend on what the BG sees, but what you can see. And, you must be able to identify a person and what he has in his hands, etc. to verify whether the person is a threat or not. BTW, the pics purportedly using cover illustrates one of the reasons I'm not overly fond of long guns for home defense. There's an awful lot of person still showing. If a handgun is properly used, all the BG should see is the gun, and half a head. Moreover, the inside walls of residential dwellings is not cover by any means, they are merely concealment. __________________ "Plans fail, things fail, people fail; but, fear never fails - it must be defeated." - by Tangle, a long time ago.

September 25th, 2007, 11:39 AM	#26
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Here and There Posts: 10,063	I see this thread has come back, so I'll join in. Like I posted before, the biggest problem I see with lights is improper use. Yeah, I know, it sounds dumb... use of a light. What's to it, turn it on and look around. That sounds simple enough. Well, not really. In most cases any of you guys will ever be faced with, why not flip the switch mounted on the wall? Think about that one. Why do you really need a flashlight in your own home? Your not hunting down the BG, you should be holed up waiting for the fight. If it scares him off, good. He already knows you are there. Or leave it off, you should know the layout of your house better than the BG does. Use your torch only to ID just before you shoot, then MOVE! I know that we are not talking about just inside your own home, but thats how the discussion has drifted. I'm not saying that a torch is not a important tool to have, I'm just saying that over use can be as bad as not having one at all. That brings me to my main point. You can go down to your hardware store of choice, load up on every high end tool man has made. When you get home, are you now a carpenter? No, you're just just a guy who bought a lot of tools, and can waste a lot of wood. Same applies to guns, tac lights etc. You got to not only know how to use them, but when. __________________ In a land of sheep, even a toothless wolf is king. Wake Up! The zombie invasion has begun years ago.

September 25th, 2007, 01:17 PM	#27
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 5,783	Tactics have to be driven by the situation. For example in my house, if I'm holed up in my bedroom AND it's dark, the only light switch I have access to is my bedroom light. If I turn that light on, I mess up my night vision, I'm lit up, and the BG is in the dark. So unless a light switch will light up the BG and his area, one would most likely be better off to use a flashlight - tactically. __________________ "Plans fail, things fail, people fail; but, fear never fails - it must be defeated." - by Tangle, a long time ago.

September 25th, 2007, 01:59 PM	#30
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 5,783	Yep, flashlights can mess up night vision, especially too bright of a flashlight. Something to keep in mind when considering a flashlight. But, we're stuck with room lights, or a flashlight. Flashlights can mess up night vision, but room lighting will for sure mess up night vision and can light you up as well. Plus, you can't turn room lights off and on unless you're willing to hang around the wall switch. I would also have to move across the bedroom to the wall switch right at the doorway to turn the light on. That's not very appealling to me at all. Actually, my first choice, SITUATION PERMITTING, would be to hole up in my bedroom, place a flashlight on a piece of furniture, point it at the door way, turn it on and move to a safe position. The light would serve to both illuminate the doorway, and focus the BG's attention to the light. Also, if your power is off, say during a storm, etc., room lights won't be an option. It'd sure be good to have and know how to use a flashlight. __________________ "Plans fail, things fail, people fail; but, fear never fails - it must be defeated." - by Tangle, a long time ago.

September 17th, 2007, 10:15 PM	#23
oilman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 222	Training is the key. Here is an example http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...10/pgname/Home

September 25th, 2007, 04:43 AM	#24
peacefuljeffrey VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: south Florida Posts: 3,169	I get the sense that in the shotgun pic, there is too much body presented from the doorway. Sixto was on the mark, there.

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