Magnetized Magazines? - Page 2

Reborn · May 7th, 2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtCO

If it is magnetized, how is that bad? Someone mentioned that it could cause an AD, but how?

By making a firing pin or other parts move at a slower than normal speed.

dnowell · May 7th, 2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reborn

By making a firing pin or other parts move at a slower than normal speed.

I can (barely) imagine that that could cause a failure to fire, but don't see how that could plausibly cause the gun to go off by itself. I'm not aware of any parts in a gun which would move based on the pull of a weak magnet. Can anyone suggest anything that might? Even a strong home magnet could barely pull the slack off most triggers, much less all the way back.

VtCO · May 7th, 2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnowell

I can (barely) imagine that that could cause a failure to fire, but don't see how that could plausibly cause the gun to go off by itself. I'm not aware of any parts in a gun which would move based on the pull of a weak magnet. Can anyone suggest anything that might? Even a strong home magnet could barely pull the slack off most triggers, much less all the way back.

Took the words outta my mouth.

AZ Husker · May 7th, 2008, 06:57 PM

It won't release steel cased Wolf ammo!

Kerbouchard · May 7th, 2008, 07:04 PM

I don't know how it happened...I don't even remember the details. I just remember reading a thread on this where an officer's gun 'went off' by itself. I think they said the magnetization came from a x-ray machine or something like that.

sgtD · May 7th, 2008, 08:31 PM

I never heard of such a thing, but then there are a lot of things I've never heard of.

As you all know, Faraday was the first to discover that passing a conductor (like copper or brass) through a magnetic field creates an electrical current. Hence, "electromagnetism."

Perhaps an AD could be caused by the electricity generated from the magnetic field, but somehow it would have to create a spark inside the case to ignite the propellant and I don't see how that could happen.

If possible it has to be a one in a million chance. So I'm stumped?????

Janq · May 7th, 2008, 10:02 PM

You guys memories are wayyyy off.
The police officers gun in the MRI machine debacle (not itself magnetized) dates back several years and it was not the fault magnetization of any part toward the firearm itself...

Quote:

Case Report
Spontaneous Discharge of a Firearm in an MR Imaging Environment
Anton Oscar Beitia1, Steven P. Meyers1, Emanuel Kanal2 and William Bartell3

1 Department of Radiology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Ave., Box 648, Rochester, NY 14642.
2 Department of Radiology (D-132), University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, 200 Lothrop St., Pittsburgh, PA 15213.
3 Rochester Police Department, Rochester, NY 14624.

Received September 4, 2001; accepted after revision November 6, 2001.

Address correspondence to A. O. Beitia.

Introduction
Top
Introduction
Case Report
Discussion
References

An incident recently occurred at an outpatient imaging center in western New York State, in which a firearm spontaneously discharged in a 1.5-T MR imaging environment with active shielding. To our knowledge, this is the first documented case of such an occurrence. The event confirms previously reported theoretic risks of a firearm discharging in an MR imaging environment [1]. In this report, we examine the incident in detail from the official police and ballistic reports.

Case Report

An off-duty police officer went to an outpatient imaging center (not affiliated with our institution) in western New York State to have an MR imaging examination. The facility housed a 1.5-T MR unit (Signa; General Electric Medical Systems, Milwaukee, WI) with active shielding. The officer was carrying a model 1991 A-1 compact.45 caliber semiautomatic pistol (Colt's Manufacturing, Hartford, CT).

The officer notified the technologist that he was carrying the weapon before entering the MR dressing room. The technologist told the officer to take the gun with him. The technologist intended to meet the officer in the MR patient waiting area before the examination and secure the weapon in that room, where he felt it would be safe. However, the officer apparently misunderstood and took the gun into the MR suite. The technologist was entering the officer's personal data into the computer and did not see him entering the MR suite.

Once the officer was inside the MR suite, the gun was pulled from his hand as he attempted to place the gun on top of a cabinet 3 ft (0.9 m) away from the magnet bore. The gun was immediately pulled into the bore, where it struck the left side and spontaneously discharged a round into the wall of the room at the rear of the magnet. Fortunately, no one was injured. Although the gun struck the magnet bore, only minimal cosmetic damage occurred to the magnet itself. The MR unit had full functional capability immediately after the gun discharged. The weapon's thumb safety was reportedly engaged when the gun discharged.

An unsuccessful attempt to remove the gun from the magnet resulted in the gun being pulled to the right side of the magnet (Fig. 1). The decision was then made to power down the magnet to remove the gun.

At the time the weapon discharged, it was reportedly in a cocked and locked position; that is, the hammer was cocked and the thumb safety was engaged to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin. A live round was in the chamber. (Many people who choose this weapon for personal protection will carry it in this manner because it allows them to quickly fire the weapon if needed.)

When the firearm was removed from the magnet, the gun was still in a cocked and locked position. An empty cartridge was found in the chamber. The presence of an empty cartridge in the chamber is highly unusual. If the thumb safety were not engaged and the weapon fired normally by depressing the trigger, the normal backward recoil of the slide should have automatically ejected the empty cartridge, and a new live round should have automatically been chambered. As discussed earlier, the thumb safety performs two functions: it prevents the sear from releasing the hammer, thereby preventing the hammer from striking the firing pin; it also locks the slide in place, preventing retrograde motion of the slide and automatic ejection of the empty cartridge. Thus, the presence of an empty cartridge in the chamber confirms that the thumb safety was engaged at the time the gun was fired. Given that the thumb safety was engaged when the gun discharged, it is also likely that the normal trigger and hammer mechanism of firing the gun was bypassed because the thumb safety would have also prevented release of the hammer.

The gun likely discharged as a result of the effect of the magnetic field on the firing pin block. The firing pin block was probably drawn into its uppermost position by force of the magnetic field. The firing pin block has to overcome only light pressure from a relatively small spring to release the firing pin. The pistol was likely drawn into the magnetic field so that the muzzle struck the magnet's bore first. With the firing pin allowed to move freely in its channel, the force of the impact on the muzzle end was sufficient to cause the firing pin to overcome its spring pressure and move forward to strike the primer of the chambered round.

This account explains how the weapon discharged when the thumb safety was engaged.

The presence of an empty cartridge in the chamber explains why the gun did not discharge a second time when it was moved from the left to the right side of the bore. Even if the identical forces were repeated, an empty cartridge, not a live round, was in the chamber at this time.

Discussion

In this incident, the gun discharged despite the thumb safety being engaged. This has important implications in that it shows that the weapon poses a risk for discharging in an MR imaging environment even with the thumb safety engaged.

One can look at the sequence of events preceding the discharge of the weapon and see several points at which the incident could have been prevented. When the officer came in with the gun, it should have been immediately secured in a safe location, even before the officer changed for the examination. The technologist, knowing the officer had a firearm, should have instructed him that under no circumstances could he bring the weapon into the MR suite. Also, the technologist should have been monitoring the officer more closely to make sure he did not enter the MR suite with the weapon. Signs should have been posted at that site, if they were not already there, warning the public of the dangers of approaching the magnetic field of the MR imager with implants, metallic devices, or objects such as firearms.

In light of this incident, all radiologists should reexamine our own site's screening methods to ensure that steps are implemented to prevent such a situation from ever recurring.

References
1. Kanal E, Shaibani A. Firearm safety in an MR imaging environment. Radiology 1994;193:875 -876[Abstract]
2. Sweeney P. Gunsmithing: pistols and revolvers. Iola, WI: Krause, 1998:30 -34

The whole of the report along with pics of the MRI machine and the firearm can be located at; Spontaneous Discharge of a Firearm in an MR Imaging Environment -- Beitia et al. 178 (5): 1092 -- American Journal of Roentgenology

- Ripley's Believe It Or Not

Kerbouchard · May 7th, 2008, 10:18 PM

It appears I had my details confused. Thanks for the post Janq. That may have been the one I was thinking about that had caused the AD. The following are times when a 'magnetized firearm' caused a weapon malfunction. NOT an AD. Sorry for my earlier lapse of memory.

Officer Safety Bulletin- MRI

Quote:

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect. Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

and
OPOA* NEWSLETTER

Quote:

MRI Unit Causes Weapon Malfunction

In July 2001, a Pennsylvania officer’s weapon malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, had a magnetized firing pin, which stuck to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, all metal parts of the weapon had become magnetized.

A review of the officer's activities, revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the building search the officer had walked into the MRI suite. The massive device had magnetized the pistol. Two additional officers involved in the building search also found that their firearms were magnetized.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a result of MRI / magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect. Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.
The department armorer was able to demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit after complete disassembly.

But I could have sworn I read about an officer who had left the room and had his gun still discharge. I can't find it in the new posts or on google, so I'm probably mistaken.

Be careful out there...and stay away from MRI machines.

dnowell · May 7th, 2008, 11:59 PM

Wow. Guess I stand corrected, Kerbouchard. Thanks for the research - had no idea a gun could get that magnetized.

Who's up for plastic firing pins?

Defensor · May 8th, 2008, 01:21 AM

Well, if what I think I know about a MRI machine, you will never encounter a magnet that strong in a normal day to day routine. So, I guess that is not anything to worry about. And it turns out it was the paper clips that were magnetized, haha, I owe Reborn a cookie, and myself a slap for not noticing it before I made a post about it...Thanks again everyone!

Dave

May 7th, 2008, 06:57 PM	#14
AZ Husker Distinguished Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Phoenix Posts: 1,907	It won't release steel cased Wolf ammo! __________________ Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

May 7th, 2008, 07:04 PM	#15
Kerbouchard Distinguished Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,964	I don't know how it happened...I don't even remember the details. I just remember reading a thread on this where an officer's gun 'went off' by itself. I think they said the magnetization came from a x-ray machine or something like that. __________________ Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever. http://miscmusings.townhall.com/ Who is John Galt?

May 7th, 2008, 08:31 PM	#16
sgtD Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 1,209	I never heard of such a thing, but then there are a lot of things I've never heard of. As you all know, Faraday was the first to discover that passing a conductor (like copper or brass) through a magnetic field creates an electrical current. Hence, "electromagnetism." Perhaps an AD could be caused by the electricity generated from the magnetic field, but somehow it would have to create a spark inside the case to ignite the propellant and I don't see how that could happen. If possible it has to be a one in a million chance. So I'm stumped????? __________________ When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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May 7th, 2008, 11:59 PM	#19
dnowell Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: USA Posts: 148	Wow. Guess I stand corrected, Kerbouchard. Thanks for the research - had no idea a gun could get that magnetized. Who's up for plastic firing pins?

May 8th, 2008, 01:21 AM	#20
Defensor Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 118	Well, if what I think I know about a MRI machine, you will never encounter a magnet that strong in a normal day to day routine. So, I guess that is not anything to worry about. And it turns out it was the paper clips that were magnetized, haha, I owe Reborn a cookie, and myself a slap for not noticing it before I made a post about it...Thanks again everyone! Dave