Annealing

Danger Mouse · January 5th, 2008, 06:01 PM

I had heard that when you reload at some point the casings will need to be annealed. What exactly is this, how can it be done, and most important, when?

Pete Zaria · January 5th, 2008, 06:06 PM

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

Personally, I've never heard of anyone doing it to spent brass.

Peace,
Pete Zaria.

Danger Mouse · January 5th, 2008, 06:22 PM

OK, I thought I had heard or it, I could be wrong. Whats the life expectancy of say a .45 ACP casing?

Pete Zaria · January 5th, 2008, 06:25 PM

I don't have reloading equipment, but used to use my Dad's when I lived with my parents.
I remember loading the same .38 Special / .357 Mag brass at least 5 or 6 times... I'll ask my dad next time I talk to him. Just make sure the cases aren't too thin/long, and don't show any signs of overpressure.

I've never loaded for an autoloader (yet).

Peace,
Pete Zaria.

nutz4utwo · January 5th, 2008, 06:46 PM

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Annealing in brass helps restore the brass to a softer, workable state. It is done by heating it to a specific temperature (usually with a torch) and allowing it to cool. After shooting a cartridge, and resizing it on the dies, it gets harder and does not like to have its shape changed more. If you then continue this cycle of shooting and resizing, it hardens and causes stress to build up. Annealing helps return the brass to its virgin state and extend its usable life.

This is not going to be a big deal if you plan to shoot it a couple of times and get rid of it. If you plan to get the most out of every cartridge a serious cleaning and annealing method seems valuable.

*note that annealing in Brass (and non ferrous metals) is quite different than annealing in steel.

nutz4utwo · January 5th, 2008, 06:50 PM

oh and watch out for live primer and powder when you are heating cases!

P95Carry · January 5th, 2008, 06:55 PM

Moved this into reloading.

It is not (IMO) worth bothering about with pistol cases but - one old favorite method used for valuable bottle neck rifle cases was to fill cases approx 2/3, 3/4 full of water and stand them in a tray of same water depth - then play a flame (MAP torch is good) over the mouth and neck exposed areas.

Repeated forming of brass work-hardens it and it becomes embrittled - not so good at stretching without splitting ... and it is in the thinner most worked area - top of case and neck where most hardening occurs. A small split will render bullet seating useless as no neck hold remaining adequately.

Once cases are treated to anneal - they will gain that sometimes familiar patterning color we see on factory rounds or more often maybe with mil stuff. If I had say, 7mm mag cases that had been used a few times, then this treatment could well extend useful life enough to warrant the time and effort.

ridurall · January 5th, 2008, 08:46 PM

I used to do it when making 30 Belted Newton brass from 300 H&H brass. It would tend to get worked hardened and I would do just as P95carry wrote about the 3/4 full of water in a pan.

Tubby45 · January 5th, 2008, 09:25 PM

For 45 Auto brass, you will loose it before it will wear out. My uncle is still using 45 Auto brass marked from 1947.

Case annealing is mostly case neck annealing. You want the case head to remain hard. You can anneal the neck to soften it up to promote longer life. Unless this is for a bolt gun, wildcat, or hard to find brass, annealing is a waste of time.

friesepferd · January 6th, 2008, 12:08 AM

not that im a metallurgist or anything... oh wait.. i am a metallurgist.

simply put: annealing is heating the metal up to make it softer.
not as simply put: when metal is cold worked- deformed- such as resizing casings, dislocations in the metal form and move around, making it stronger, but also very brittle (causes casings to split eventually). when the metal is heated, these dislocations get to move around and relieve a lot of internal stress. grains grow much bigger, etc. this will lower the strength of the metal (not so important for us here), and increase ductility (what we want).
as far as reloading goes: for handguns casings, not so important. it takes quite a while for the brass to get brittle enough to start splitting and such. its just not worth it.
annealing is done most often for rifle cartridges where it often splits at the next and casings are harder to get. people generally do it with a torch. its impossible to actually tell what temp you are annealing at and time. and even if you did, to do it correctly you would have to look up a bunch of data, or know how to read some fun graphs and such. if you really want to get into this doing rifle reloading, read into it a LOT, or its very likely that you will either torch your brass to long or not long enough and just ruin it anyways.

January 5th, 2008, 06:01 PM	#1
Danger Mouse Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 362	Annealing I had heard that when you reload at some point the casings will need to be annealed. What exactly is this, how can it be done, and most important, when? __________________ Think twice Buy once!

January 5th, 2008, 06:22 PM	#3
Danger Mouse Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 362	OK, I thought I had heard or it, I could be wrong. Whats the life expectancy of say a .45 ACP casing? __________________ Think twice Buy once!

January 5th, 2008, 06:55 PM	#7
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,366	Moved this into reloading. It is not (IMO) worth bothering about with pistol cases but - one old favorite method used for valuable bottle neck rifle cases was to fill cases approx 2/3, 3/4 full of water and stand them in a tray of same water depth - then play a flame (MAP torch is good) over the mouth and neck exposed areas. Repeated forming of brass work-hardens it and it becomes embrittled - not so good at stretching without splitting ... and it is in the thinner most worked area - top of case and neck where most hardening occurs. A small split will render bullet seating useless as no neck hold remaining adequately. Once cases are treated to anneal - they will gain that sometimes familiar patterning color we see on factory rounds or more often maybe with mil stuff. If I had say, 7mm mag cases that had been used a few times, then this treatment could well extend useful life enough to warrant the time and effort. __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

January 5th, 2008, 08:46 PM	#8
ridurall Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: SW Oklahoma Posts: 735	I used to do it when making 30 Belted Newton brass from 300 H&H brass. It would tend to get worked hardened and I would do just as P95carry wrote about the 3/4 full of water in a pan. __________________ Life member NRA since 1983 I normally carry a Sig Pro .40 in a Crossbreed IWB but when necessary will switch to: Baby Eagle .40 W/Kramer holster Bersa Thunder380 Kel-Tec P3AT Skyy 9mm

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January 5th, 2008, 06:06 PM	#2
Pete Zaria Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Near Seattle, WA Posts: 716	Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy) Personally, I've never heard of anyone doing it to spent brass. Peace, Pete Zaria.

January 5th, 2008, 06:25 PM	#4
Pete Zaria Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Near Seattle, WA Posts: 716	I don't have reloading equipment, but used to use my Dad's when I lived with my parents. I remember loading the same .38 Special / .357 Mag brass at least 5 or 6 times... I'll ask my dad next time I talk to him. Just make sure the cases aren't too thin/long, and don't show any signs of overpressure. I've never loaded for an autoloader (yet). Peace, Pete Zaria.

January 5th, 2008, 06:46 PM	#5
nutz4utwo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 398	http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html Annealing in brass helps restore the brass to a softer, workable state. It is done by heating it to a specific temperature (usually with a torch) and allowing it to cool. After shooting a cartridge, and resizing it on the dies, it gets harder and does not like to have its shape changed more. If you then continue this cycle of shooting and resizing, it hardens and causes stress to build up. Annealing helps return the brass to its virgin state and extend its usable life. This is not going to be a big deal if you plan to shoot it a couple of times and get rid of it. If you plan to get the most out of every cartridge a serious cleaning and annealing method seems valuable. *note that annealing in Brass (and non ferrous metals) is quite different than annealing in steel.

January 5th, 2008, 06:50 PM	#6
nutz4utwo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 398	oh and watch out for live primer and powder when you are heating cases!

January 5th, 2008, 09:25 PM	#9
Tubby45 Distinguished Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: In the reloading room Posts: 1,988	For 45 Auto brass, you will loose it before it will wear out. My uncle is still using 45 Auto brass marked from 1947. Case annealing is mostly case neck annealing. You want the case head to remain hard. You can anneal the neck to soften it up to promote longer life. Unless this is for a bolt gun, wildcat, or hard to find brass, annealing is a waste of time.

January 6th, 2008, 12:08 AM	#10
friesepferd Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: what used to be the state of Franklin (look it up) Posts: 1,719	not that im a metallurgist or anything... oh wait.. i am a metallurgist. simply put: annealing is heating the metal up to make it softer. not as simply put: when metal is cold worked- deformed- such as resizing casings, dislocations in the metal form and move around, making it stronger, but also very brittle (causes casings to split eventually). when the metal is heated, these dislocations get to move around and relieve a lot of internal stress. grains grow much bigger, etc. this will lower the strength of the metal (not so important for us here), and increase ductility (what we want). as far as reloading goes: for handguns casings, not so important. it takes quite a while for the brass to get brittle enough to start splitting and such. its just not worth it. annealing is done most often for rifle cartridges where it often splits at the next and casings are harder to get. people generally do it with a torch. its impossible to actually tell what temp you are annealing at and time. and even if you did, to do it correctly you would have to look up a bunch of data, or know how to read some fun graphs and such. if you really want to get into this doing rifle reloading, read into it a LOT, or its very likely that you will either torch your brass to long or not long enough and just ruin it anyways.