The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID - Page 2

Bud White · May 13th, 2005, 06:56 AM

Yawn Next topic please

rstickle · May 13th, 2005, 08:16 AM

I figure I'm not worried about it. I'm pretty sure I've been carrying a "national ID card" since 1964. It says DD Form 2 on it, and I've used it to buy firearms, get on military bases and in the PX, and at the airport. All a new card would do is make my walley fatter!!

Euclidean · May 13th, 2005, 08:18 AM

Oh to be sure there won't be an instant 1984 society.

The point is though, in 2084, when the National Systematic Castration Act passes, you know to keep those "undesirables" from reproducing, they'll use the national ID base to enforce it.

And here's something that is going to happen and soon: I'd bet you $1 that the second generation of these cards will have one of those RFID chips in it to store your information. Every 12 year old who knows how to hack even a little bit will know a lot of things about you they shouldn't, and anybody with the right hardware will be possibly be able to read and track that chip.

The whole "illegal immigrant" angle is a red herring used to pass this off as benign legislation to the sheeple. Don't take the bait. It's a backroom deal passed by people who have no interest but being able to control you better.

A card that shouldn't exist that will cost $700 million to implement fights illegal immigration the same way a state ballistics database fights crime.

Quote:

Hundreds of civil liberties groups, immigrant support groups and government associations oppose the Real ID Act, a piece of legislation that critics say would produce a de facto national ID card, cost states millions of dollars and punish undocumented immigrants.

Yet despite widespread opposition to the bill, it passed through the House last week and is expected to easily pass through the Senate on Tuesday.

The legislation is raising questions not only about privacy and costs but about the ways in which critical legislation gets passed in Congress.

That's because lawmakers slipped the bill into a larger piece of legislation -- an $82 billion spending bill -- that authorizes funds for the Iraq war and tsunami relief, among other things, and is considered a must-pass piece of legislation.

It's not the first time Congress has slipped contentious bills into larger legislation that is almost guaranteed to pass. In 2003, Congress augmented Patriot Act surveillance powers with wording slipped into the Intelligence Authorization Act, a bill that authorized funding for intelligence agencies.

Critics, such as the American Civil Liberties Union, say lawmakers slipped the Real ID Act into the relatively uncontroversial spending bill in order to avoid a congressional debate over the ID measure.

"The legislation was created in the backrooms of Congress without hearings and without any real understanding or thought about what was being created," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the ACLU's technology and liberty program.

The Real ID Act, sponsored by House Judiciary Committee chairman James Sensenbrenner (R-Wisconsin), responds to recommendations made by the 9/11 Commission to make it more difficult for terrorists and undocumented immigrants to obtain legitimate identification documents and travel freely around the country. The bill also is designed to make it difficult for anyone to forge identification documents and use them for criminal purposes.

A spokesman from Sensenbrenner's office did not return a call for comment in time for publication. But proponents of the legislation say they are simply implementing recommendations that the 9/11 Commission wanted.

"The federal government should set standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification, such as driver's licenses," wrote the commissioners in their report. "Fraud in identification documents is no longer just a problem of theft. At many entry points to vulnerable facilities, including gates for boarding aircraft, sources of identification are the last opportunity to ensure that people are who they say they are and to check whether they are terrorists."

Among other things, the legislation would force states to produce standardized, tamper-resistant driver's licenses that would include machine-readable, encoded data.

States theoretically could choose not to comply with the standards, but residents of those states would not be able to use their license as identification to obtain federal benefits -- such as veteran's benefits or Social Security -- or to travel on airplanes.

The legislation doesn't specify what data states must encode in the driver's license. The secretary of transportation and Department of Homeland Security secretary have authority to designate the data.

The National Governors Association, the Council of State Governments and the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators are among those who say the law creates unnecessary bureaucracy for drivers and imposes hardship and undue cost on state offices.

The legislation would require all drivers, including current license holders, to provide multiple documents to verify their identity before they could obtain a license or renew one. Drivers would have to provide four types of documentation, such as a photo ID, a birth certificate, proof that their Social Security number is legitimate and something that verifies the applicant's full home address, such as a utility bill. The law would then compel Department of Motor Vehicle employees to verify the documents against federal databases and store the documents and a digital photo of the card holder in a database.

"What's the clerk in Denver supposed to do when someone provides a birth certificate from Angola?" asked Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "Are they supposed (to call Angola) to check the accuracy of that?"

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the cost for states to train workers and switch to the new licensing system would be $100 million over five years. But critics like the National Council of State Legislatures say it will more likely cost between $500 million and $700 million.

Some critics call the legislation anti-immigration. Among other things, it would prohibit undocumented immigrants from obtaining a driver's license. Nearly a dozen states currently don't require proof of legal residency to obtain a driver's license, but this would change with the new law.

Civil liberties groups are concerned about the privacy implications of the bill. Although the bill states that licenses must be machine-readable, it does not state the kind of technology to be used. Steinhardt said that officials would likely require states to embed a contactless RFID chip in licenses at some point, even if they didn't require this in the initial rollout of licenses.

RFID chips can hold more data than magnetic stripes, but they can also allow someone with an RFID reader to collect information stored on a license from a distance without the license holder's knowledge.

The machine-readable part of the license will contain most of the information printed on the license front -- such as the holder's name, birth date, gender and digital photograph. But the Department of Homeland Security could add more data, such as digital fingerprints.

Proponents of the bill such as the nonprofit group NumbersUSA could not be reached for comment. But the group's members have said in the past that the bill successfully balances security and privacy interests.

Among other things, the group argues that the bill does not create a national ID card because it allows individual states to issue the documents and does not force states to comply unless they want the documents to be accepted by federal agencies as proof of identity. In fact, they argue that the Real ID bill will make it unnecessary for the federal government to issue a national ID card.

Steinhardt disagrees.

"This is a national ID, there's no question about that," Steinhardt said. "It may be issued by the 50 states, but it's going to be the same documents, which will be backed up by a huge database."

Steinhardt says a standardized license would allow the government and businesses to track people and would essentially create a single national database, since states would be required to open their driver's license databases to other states. He expressed concern that businesses would also want to read and collect the data on driver's licenses.

"Everyone from 7-Eleven to the owner of your apartment building to a retailer and a bank are going to demand to see this document," Steinhardt said. "And they're going to be able to read all of the private data off of the machine-readable strip."

Currently, some business such as bars and restaurants scan the magnetic strip on driver's licenses to collect data on patrons for marketing purposes. But the practice is not widespread.

Steinhardt said that making the content and format of the data uniform would encourage retailers and others to harvest the information and create their own parallel database and sell the information to data brokers like ChoicePoint.

Talk about a standardized driver's license arose last year after the 9/11 Commission Report revealed the ease with which the World Trade Center terrorists obtained legitimate driver's licenses and moved around the country unthwarted.

This year Sensenbrenner introduced the legislation as a stand-alone bill, which passed in the House in February. In March lawmakers, anticipating trouble passing it through the Senate, slipped the act into the larger, must-pass spending bill. It's this bill that the Senate is expected to pass on Tuesday.

"The deal's been cut," Steinhardt said. "I would be stunned beyond belief if it didn't pass at this point."

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,...%20n_tophead_1

Welcome to Amerika. Big Brother is watching you comrade.

Is everyone going to roll over and accept it when President Hillary bans civilian ownership of semiautomatic firearms and institutes state controlled health care? This National ID sure will help her a lot in enforcing such things.

HotGuns · May 13th, 2005, 12:00 PM

Counterarguments against those that see no wrong with a national ID...

Lady and Gentlemen...

We are loosing our freedoms just a tiny itsy bit at a time. Not so much that you would take notice...because then you might actually try to do something about it. One day we'll wake up and realize that we have very little precious freedoms left. And we'll wonder where in the heck and HOW in the heck we lost it.

Nope...it aint gonna happen all at once. There will be no stormtroopers going house to house or mass panic or chaos or anything like it.

Control of everything and everyone will come not by force, but by good folks that trust the government to do the right thing. Its not going to be forced on them..they are gonna ask for it !

Wanna stop illegals form entering the country ? How about letting the government do the job that it is tasked to do ? Our border patrols are undermanned, understaffed and underfunded. If the U.S. was serious about the borders...they would simply shut them off. We could fence it off, and and apprehend ANYONE that trys to cross. We are the richest, strongest ,most powerful country in the world with a military second to none. Our police forces ALONE total more than the military of most countries in the world. We have the technology and the tools to do it right and do it well.

What do we do instead ? We "force" everyone to get a national ID. We make it hard on them if they refuse to do so. We dont use physcial FORCE we simply make it too inconvient to not have one, so we use the force of inconvience which is a "force " that is just as powerful or more than physical force. Refuse to get the ID and all of a sudden you cant fly anywhere or cross the border or do certain things that you could do yestereday.

We do it in the name of peace and safety.
Look at the "Patriot Act". An act several hundred pages long that was passed a few weeks after some jets took out the World Trade Center. Most people that voted on it admitted to not even reading it. It was nessescary to fight terroism they were told. We have to do this in order to protect ourselves they were told. Anyone voting against it was accused of not wanting to protect the country from terrorism.They were even accused of being unpatriotic. So what we got, was a bill, that was voted into law... that basically usurps the Constitution of the US and all of the rights included in it if someone somewhere happpens to call you a "terrorist".
Has anyone here even read it ? I have and I do not like what I have seen. It sets a dangerous precedent.

It was a bill that was passed because good people expect those in government to do the right thing. There are those in government that could care less about what it right and what is wrong, they hold nothing dear and they have a dark agenda. It is this minority of folks that use those folks to their advantage to pass anything that they want to to further that agenda.

Ill be the first to agree that it appears that we have made much progress in the way of gun rights...but have we ?

We now have 38 states with licences to carry...a database of folks that are smart enoug to know that the cops cant be everywhere. These are not the clueless sheeple that never notice anything or expect free handouts form the government. The police are now enabled to carry their weapons pretty much anywhere anytime in the country. It had made it easier for me as a Deputy Sheriff to access info about you if you are a visiting officer. Now there is talk of a "national carry" which bascially says if you have a CCW from your home state you can carry anywhere. If that happens, we'll go from having a state database to a national database.
Remember that these are "licenses." Any license to do anything can be revoked by either the local, state or federal government at any time for any reason they deem necessary.

What used to be a right of protection is now a license for protection, yet many good folks fail to realize that when the give up a right for a license, they are giving someone somehwere the ability to tell them what they can or cant do. So I ask, are we REALLY making progress in the area of gunrights ?

Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government REFUSES to act the right thing to do ?

As I stated before...its just another brick in the wall...

QKShooter · May 13th, 2005, 12:33 PM

Talk about loss of freedom. Here is a perfect example of a true loss of freedom that already exists due to the inability of some people to be efficiently tracked.
Parents that have to guard their little kids 24 hours a day due to untraceable sex offenders.
Children that are already deathly afraid to smile and say "Hello" to somebody in the supermarket. Multiple offense sexual molesters and abusers getting jobs as summer camp counselors and day care providers.
Employees with criminal record sheets 2 miles long getting jobs "cleaning" your hotel room.
Doctors who lose their medical license being able to move to another state open up shop again. Dr. Swengo easily getting jobs in multiple hospitals and managing to kill (at least) 60 patients before being finally caught.
People with known terrorist organization affiliations easily getting their trucking license to transport chemicals and materials capable of ending mass quantities of human life in a heartbeat.
Personally...if some "flake" goes into one gun shop and buys 5 pounds of black powder and then goes into two more gun shops and buys 10 more pounds of black powder & then goes to 4 gun shops in a neighboring state and buys 30 more pounds of the stuff...then you had better believe that I SURE DO WANT somebody to know about it and ask him a few questions. And...if it turns out that the guy is sponsoring an upcoming muzzle loading convention then..."Absolutely No Problem!" but, if he was planning on blowing up something in the airport then I sure would like somebody of authority to know about it before I fly down to visit Grandma in Sunny Florida.

So with ANY new system...Is there a potential for abuse? Sure...Yep!...And...You Bet! And that's why we have the chance to toss all of Congress out and elect a new POTUS ever 4 years...Not to mention a nation "Chock Full" of gosh awful hungry lawyers that will pick up on that specific abuse and fling it into the courtroom and then toss it right up to the Supreme Court and back again. If that happens then no matter How Much federal money was spent on the program it will either "get fixed" or probably go the way of "Prohibition."
Also: I hate to break the news to you but the United States Government is not really too concerned about you...The Average Law Abiding Citizen and your Bad A$$ Assault Rifle. BECAUSE it's really only Bad A$$ to you and it's really not at all very "bad" anymore to the United States Military at all. They are already and forever 10 or 15 years ahead in serious "R&D" than what we are seeing on the TV at any present time.
And an "Evil Black Rifle" with a Streamlight and some tactical "add on" is really not going to do a whole lot to stop a Highly Trained and Equipped US Military SpecOps Team from taking your "Precious Bootie" any time they want to...if that is what they honestly had any volition, desire, or reason to do.
They'll launch a few percussion & Flash Bangs into your house at the same time it's filling up with CS Gas & a Black Chopper is dropping five guys on your roof while another 16 are coming through every window and door with Night Vision & they won't care all that much what sort of rifle or 12 gauge shotgun you have on hand. I can rather envision a scenario where the help of armed US citizens would be needed to help combat an outside threat.
The reality of our recent situation is that the United States was attacked by Outside Extreme Fundamentalists who absolutely despise America and all Americans and would like nothing better than to see all innocent American men, women, & children dead in the streets.
That is where I hope and pray that we are focusing our efforts & I trust that our basic integrity and inherent love of freedom will put a quick end to any minor or major idiosyncratic violations and infractions of our individual rights should any occur due to a REAL ID type system.
I totally agree with Bumper that we No Longer can afford the past luxury of Not Knowing and Not Caring about who is plotting against us inside the borders of the United States.
And By The Way...I'll send everybody on the forum enough cash to buy themselves a cheap six pack of beer if Hillary Clinton gets elected President Of the United States in the next presidential.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I actually see a trend toward the reversal of earlier & stricter firearms restrictions.
And....Now that a legal precedent has been set for an interstate carry by LEO I can see a real possibility of that opening the door for national carry for LTC citizens. I think that a valid "Equal Rights Under The Law" argument can now be put into play.
So...I'm going to continue to not get all "spazzed out" about a National ID Card until I start hearing about REAL Cases of actual abuse of the system.
If that happens then I'll bend my knee and I'll say "Fellow Forum Members...I Was Wrong & You Were Right"
My only hope will be that I get the chance to apologize before I get hauled off to the Government Containment Facility For Disarmed American Citizens...or better yet...I'll see ya there!

Be sure to wear CombatCarry.com nametags so I'll recognize you'all & we'll dig ourselves a secret escape tunnel together.

QKShooter · May 13th, 2005, 01:09 PM

"Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government REFUSES to act the right thing to do?"

I think it's more because the govt thinks we need the cheap labor & that Americans won't want to pay $7.00 for a head of lettuce or $50.00 for a plain white T~shirt.
It's also political suicide for either party to target any immigration group for entry restriction. You can't take the politics out of politics & that is why we don't have the American version of "The Great Wall Of China" on our borders. The alternative is to let the people in to work & know "who" and (I guess) where they are.
It's admittedly quite a sticky business with some serious potential for "possible" abuse.
I "For Sure" don't drink the Government Kool~Aide but, they are really not going to find out any more about you than they can already. It's just a more efficient and quicker way of putting all those random already accessible pieces together.
If the system gets abused there will be MORE than the Pro~Gunners that are Screaming about it.
The Liberal Left will be the first ones to have it canned...big time.
And for once the Lib~Antis and the pro~gunners will have a real common fight.
And...we'll be standing there "up in arms" protesting right beside Babs Boxer & Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition.

Tom357 · May 13th, 2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QKShooter

...If the system gets abused there will be MORE than the Pro~Gunners that are Screaming about it.
The Liberal Left will be the first ones to have it canned...big time.
And for once the Lib~Antis and the pro~gunners will have a real common fight.
And...we'll be standing there "up in arms" protesting right beside Babs Boxer & Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition.

I trust that my government will continue to be ineffective, inefficient and inept, so I am not too worried about how the ID will be used. I am worried about how they are going to botch it up. But I can't agree with the above statement.

The Liberal Left won't have it canned as long as the freedoms being abused are the abuses they agree with. If the government were cracking down on politically incorrect speech, or gun ownership, or any of the other rights violations that the Left has called for, then the Liberal Left would be leading the cheering, because the loss of freedom is being driven by the socialist mindset of the Liberal Left. As long as they are receiving the benefits of the elite, we will not have common cause.

Fjolnirsson · May 13th, 2005, 02:23 PM

Pertaining to the topic of illegals crossing the border, allow me to throw this on the fire:

Border Patrol told to stand down in Arizona

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.
More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration.

"It was clear to everyone here what was being said and why," said one veteran agent. "The apprehensions were not to increase after the Minuteman volunteers left. It was as simple as that."
Another agent said the Naco supervisors "were clear in their intention" to keep new arrests to an "absolute minimum" to offset the effect of the Minuteman vigil, adding that patrols along the border have been severely limited.
Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar at the agency's Washington headquarters called the accusations "outright wrong," saying that supervisors at the Naco station had not blocked agents from making arrests and that the station's 350 agents were being "supported in carrying out" their duties.
"Border Patrol agents are the front line of defense against terrorism," Chief Aguilar said, adding that the 11,000 agents nationwide are "meeting that challenge, head-on ... as daunting a task as that may sound."
The chief -- a former head of the agency's Tucson sector, which includes the Naco station -- said that with the world watching the Arizona border because of the Minuteman Project, agents in Naco "demonstrated flexibility and resilience in carrying out their critical homeland security duties and responsibilities."
But Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, yesterday said "credible sources" within the Border Patrol also had told him of the decision by Naco supervisors to keep new arrests to a minimum, saying he was angry but not surprised.
"It's like telling a cop to stand by and watch burglars loot a store but don't arrest any of them," he said. "This is another example of decisions being made at the highest levels of the Border Patrol that are hurting morale and helping to rot the agency from within.
"I worry about our efforts in Congress to increase the number of agents," he said. "Based on these kinds of orders, we could spend the equivalent of the national debt and never have secure borders."
Mr. Tancredo, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, blamed the Bush administration for setting an immigration enforcement tone that suggests to those enforcing the law that he is not serious about secure borders.
"We need to get the president to come to grips with the seriousness of the problem," he said. "I know he doesn't like to utter the words, 'I was wrong,' but if we have another incident like September 11 by people who came through our borders without permission, I hope he doesn't have to say 'I'm sorry.' "
During the Minuteman vigil, Border Patrol supervisors in Arizona discounted their efforts, saying a drop in apprehensions during their protest was because of the Mexican government's deployment of military and police south of the targeted area and a new federal program known as the Arizona Border Control Initiative that brought manpower increases to the state.
The Naco supervisors blamed the volunteers for unnecessarily tripping sensors, disturbing draglines and interfering with the normal operations of the agents. They said that their impact on illegals was "negligible" and that civilians should leave immigration enforcement "to the professionals."
Several field agents credited the volunteers with cutting the flow of illegal aliens in the targeted Naco area, saying the number of apprehended illegals dropped from an average of 500 a day to less than 15 a day.
More than 850 volunteers, in a protest of the lax immigration enforcement policies of the White House and Congress, sought to reduce the flow of illegal aliens along a popular immigration corridor on the Arizona-Mexico border near Naco by reporting illegals to the Border Patrol as they crossed into the United States.
Their goal was to show that increased manpower on the border would effectively deter illegal immigration. Organizers said the protest resulted in Border Patrol arrests of 349 illegal aliens.
Area residents, in a half-page ad in the Sunday edition of the Sierra Vista Herald, told the volunteers: "Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed."

Interesting times we live in. I think a few people need to be hauled up on charges for derilection of duty.

HotGuns · May 13th, 2005, 02:36 PM

U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.
More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration

Well well...
perhaps there is more to the big picture than most folks want to know about...

let the illegals SWARM into the country unmolested. Eventually the average Joe is gonna get pissed and call for something to be done. OH WAIT...lets have a national ID so we can "know" who everyone is.

Yeah...that'll "fix" em alright....

"Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed."

Anyone with half of a brain can see that there is more than meets the eye here.

The plan is working quite well it seems...

QKShooter · May 13th, 2005, 04:06 PM

Well, I've been listening to probably nearly 1,000 various rants over the course of my lifetime from all sorts of assorted "Experts"
Give me about three solid days of thinking about nothing else & I could probably remember nearly all of them.
The polar Ice Caps are melting...the oceans are dying...the world will be completely overpopulated by 2010...our oil reserves and "fossil fuels" will be gone by 2002...Global Warming VS. Global Cooling...the ozone layer was supposed to be gone...what?? - five years ago...the millennium sunspots will disrupt everything on Planet Earth...Y2K....All the planes are going fall from the sky due to electromagnetic pulses. Cell phones cause brain cancer. The rain forests should be totally gone by now too...No clean water to drink...Eggs will kill you - Coffee will kill you - Wine will kill you - Butter will kill you - Red meat will kill you - Vitamins are bad for you...no they're good for you.

Living next to high voltage power lines will slowly kill you.
Flouride in the water is killing our children. California will fall into the ocean.
Mad Cow Disease will destroy the US Beef Industry...The Hale-Bopp Comet is coming - TV will destroy your vision - UV Radiation will give everybody skin cancer - Our nations blood supply is tainted - We'll all be dead from asbestos particles that are everywhere in the air...and who could forget deadly RADON GAS? - And lead poisoning for everybody that just can't resist eating the paint chips off their walls - and let's not forget those mysterious cattle mutilations - and actually, the U.S. Economy should have totally crashed 15 years ago - and we were totally DOOMED once we went off of the Gold Standard...& remember silver hitting $80.00 an ounce? - I Don't know...Air pollution is killing all the trees - KILLER BEES were going to sting everybody to death - Aluminum pots and pans cause Alzheimer's Disease - According to the NRA we should have lost ALL of our firearms 6 different times already!
The National Instant Check System was supposed to be the death toll to every gun owner everywhere.
The Earth was actually supposed to "flip" on it's axis & toss us into the next ice age. You guys want 500 more?
I remember when people got all spazzed out when they had to have an ordinary photo taken for their doggone photo drivers license.
Forgive me for taking the Real ID Card "scare" with a huge grain of salt.

No Wait...forget the salt...that will kill you too.

May 13th, 2005, 08:16 AM	#12
rstickle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Laurel, MD Posts: 9,154	I figure I'm not worried about it. I'm pretty sure I've been carrying a "national ID card" since 1964. It says DD Form 2 on it, and I've used it to buy firearms, get on military bases and in the PX, and at the airport. All a new card would do is make my walley fatter!! __________________ Rick EOD - Initial success or total failure

May 13th, 2005, 12:33 PM	#15
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, PA. Posts: 18,582	QKShooter Addition. Talk about loss of freedom. Here is a perfect example of a true loss of freedom that already exists due to the inability of some people to be efficiently tracked. Parents that have to guard their little kids 24 hours a day due to untraceable sex offenders. Children that are already deathly afraid to smile and say "Hello" to somebody in the supermarket. Multiple offense sexual molesters and abusers getting jobs as summer camp counselors and day care providers. Employees with criminal record sheets 2 miles long getting jobs "cleaning" your hotel room. Doctors who lose their medical license being able to move to another state open up shop again. Dr. Swengo easily getting jobs in multiple hospitals and managing to kill (at least) 60 patients before being finally caught. People with known terrorist organization affiliations easily getting their trucking license to transport chemicals and materials capable of ending mass quantities of human life in a heartbeat. Personally...if some "flake" goes into one gun shop and buys 5 pounds of black powder and then goes into two more gun shops and buys 10 more pounds of black powder & then goes to 4 gun shops in a neighboring state and buys 30 more pounds of the stuff...then you had better believe that I SURE DO WANT somebody to know about it and ask him a few questions. And...if it turns out that the guy is sponsoring an upcoming muzzle loading convention then..."Absolutely No Problem!" but, if he was planning on blowing up something in the airport then I sure would like somebody of authority to know about it before I fly down to visit Grandma in Sunny Florida. So with ANY new system...Is there a potential for abuse? Sure...Yep!...And...You Bet! And that's why we have the chance to toss all of Congress out and elect a new POTUS ever 4 years...Not to mention a nation "Chock Full" of gosh awful hungry lawyers that will pick up on that specific abuse and fling it into the courtroom and then toss it right up to the Supreme Court and back again. If that happens then no matter How Much federal money was spent on the program it will either "get fixed" or probably go the way of "Prohibition." Also: I hate to break the news to you but the United States Government is not really too concerned about you...The Average Law Abiding Citizen and your Bad A$$ Assault Rifle. BECAUSE it's really only Bad A$$ to you and it's really not at all very "bad" anymore to the United States Military at all. They are already and forever 10 or 15 years ahead in serious "R&D" than what we are seeing on the TV at any present time. And an "Evil Black Rifle" with a Streamlight and some tactical "add on" is really not going to do a whole lot to stop a Highly Trained and Equipped US Military SpecOps Team from taking your "Precious Bootie" any time they want to...if that is what they honestly had any volition, desire, or reason to do. They'll launch a few percussion & Flash Bangs into your house at the same time it's filling up with CS Gas & a Black Chopper is dropping five guys on your roof while another 16 are coming through every window and door with Night Vision & they won't care all that much what sort of rifle or 12 gauge shotgun you have on hand. I can rather envision a scenario where the help of armed US citizens would be needed to help combat an outside threat. The reality of our recent situation is that the United States was attacked by Outside Extreme Fundamentalists who absolutely despise America and all Americans and would like nothing better than to see all innocent American men, women, & children dead in the streets. That is where I hope and pray that we are focusing our efforts & I trust that our basic integrity and inherent love of freedom will put a quick end to any minor or major idiosyncratic violations and infractions of our individual rights should any occur due to a REAL ID type system. I totally agree with Bumper that we No Longer can afford the past luxury of Not Knowing and Not Caring about who is plotting against us inside the borders of the United States. And By The Way...I'll send everybody on the forum enough cash to buy themselves a cheap six pack of beer if Hillary Clinton gets elected President Of the United States in the next presidential. Correct me if I'm wrong but I actually see a trend toward the reversal of earlier & stricter firearms restrictions. And....Now that a legal precedent has been set for an interstate carry by LEO I can see a real possibility of that opening the door for national carry for LTC citizens. I think that a valid "Equal Rights Under The Law" argument can now be put into play. So...I'm going to continue to not get all "spazzed out" about a National ID Card until I start hearing about REAL Cases of actual abuse of the system. If that happens then I'll bend my knee and I'll say "Fellow Forum Members...I Was Wrong & You Were Right" My only hope will be that I get the chance to apologize before I get hauled off to the Government Containment Facility For Disarmed American Citizens...or better yet...I'll see ya there! Be sure to wear CombatCarry.com nametags so I'll recognize you'all & we'll dig ourselves a secret escape tunnel together. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here. Last edited by QKShooter; May 13th, 2005 at 12:48 PM.

May 13th, 2005, 01:09 PM	#16
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, PA. Posts: 18,582	HotGuns "Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government REFUSES to act the right thing to do?" I think it's more because the govt thinks we need the cheap labor & that Americans won't want to pay $7.00 for a head of lettuce or $50.00 for a plain white T~shirt. It's also political suicide for either party to target any immigration group for entry restriction. You can't take the politics out of politics & that is why we don't have the American version of "The Great Wall Of China" on our borders. The alternative is to let the people in to work & know "who" and (I guess) where they are. It's admittedly quite a sticky business with some serious potential for "possible" abuse. I "For Sure" don't drink the Government Kool~Aide but, they are really not going to find out any more about you than they can already. It's just a more efficient and quicker way of putting all those random already accessible pieces together. If the system gets abused there will be MORE than the Pro~Gunners that are Screaming about it. The Liberal Left will be the first ones to have it canned...big time. And for once the Lib~Antis and the pro~gunners will have a real common fight. And...we'll be standing there "up in arms" protesting right beside Babs Boxer & Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

May 13th, 2005, 02:23 PM	#18
Fjolnirsson Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oregon, the rainy part. Posts: 265	Pertaining to the topic of illegals crossing the border, allow me to throw this on the fire: Border Patrol told to stand down in Arizona By Jerry Seper THE WASHINGTON TIMES U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned. More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration. "It was clear to everyone here what was being said and why," said one veteran agent. "The apprehensions were not to increase after the Minuteman volunteers left. It was as simple as that." Another agent said the Naco supervisors "were clear in their intention" to keep new arrests to an "absolute minimum" to offset the effect of the Minuteman vigil, adding that patrols along the border have been severely limited. Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar at the agency's Washington headquarters called the accusations "outright wrong," saying that supervisors at the Naco station had not blocked agents from making arrests and that the station's 350 agents were being "supported in carrying out" their duties. "Border Patrol agents are the front line of defense against terrorism," Chief Aguilar said, adding that the 11,000 agents nationwide are "meeting that challenge, head-on ... as daunting a task as that may sound." The chief -- a former head of the agency's Tucson sector, which includes the Naco station -- said that with the world watching the Arizona border because of the Minuteman Project, agents in Naco "demonstrated flexibility and resilience in carrying out their critical homeland security duties and responsibilities." But Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, yesterday said "credible sources" within the Border Patrol also had told him of the decision by Naco supervisors to keep new arrests to a minimum, saying he was angry but not surprised. "It's like telling a cop to stand by and watch burglars loot a store but don't arrest any of them," he said. "This is another example of decisions being made at the highest levels of the Border Patrol that are hurting morale and helping to rot the agency from within. "I worry about our efforts in Congress to increase the number of agents," he said. "Based on these kinds of orders, we could spend the equivalent of the national debt and never have secure borders." Mr. Tancredo, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, blamed the Bush administration for setting an immigration enforcement tone that suggests to those enforcing the law that he is not serious about secure borders. "We need to get the president to come to grips with the seriousness of the problem," he said. "I know he doesn't like to utter the words, 'I was wrong,' but if we have another incident like September 11 by people who came through our borders without permission, I hope he doesn't have to say 'I'm sorry.' " During the Minuteman vigil, Border Patrol supervisors in Arizona discounted their efforts, saying a drop in apprehensions during their protest was because of the Mexican government's deployment of military and police south of the targeted area and a new federal program known as the Arizona Border Control Initiative that brought manpower increases to the state. The Naco supervisors blamed the volunteers for unnecessarily tripping sensors, disturbing draglines and interfering with the normal operations of the agents. They said that their impact on illegals was "negligible" and that civilians should leave immigration enforcement "to the professionals." Several field agents credited the volunteers with cutting the flow of illegal aliens in the targeted Naco area, saying the number of apprehended illegals dropped from an average of 500 a day to less than 15 a day. More than 850 volunteers, in a protest of the lax immigration enforcement policies of the White House and Congress, sought to reduce the flow of illegal aliens along a popular immigration corridor on the Arizona-Mexico border near Naco by reporting illegals to the Border Patrol as they crossed into the United States. Their goal was to show that increased manpower on the border would effectively deter illegal immigration. Organizers said the protest resulted in Border Patrol arrests of 349 illegal aliens. Area residents, in a half-page ad in the Sunday edition of the Sierra Vista Herald, told the volunteers: "Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed." Interesting times we live in. I think a few people need to be hauled up on charges for derilection of duty. __________________ "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be like water, my friend."-Bruce Lee My Blog "Luck, often enough, will save a man if his courage does hold."

May 13th, 2005, 04:06 PM	#20
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, PA. Posts: 18,582	Well, I've been listening to probably nearly 1,000 various rants over the course of my lifetime from all sorts of assorted "Experts" Give me about three solid days of thinking about nothing else & I could probably remember nearly all of them. The polar Ice Caps are melting...the oceans are dying...the world will be completely overpopulated by 2010...our oil reserves and "fossil fuels" will be gone by 2002...Global Warming VS. Global Cooling...the ozone layer was supposed to be gone...what?? - five years ago...the millennium sunspots will disrupt everything on Planet Earth...Y2K....All the planes are going fall from the sky due to electromagnetic pulses. Cell phones cause brain cancer. The rain forests should be totally gone by now too...No clean water to drink...Eggs will kill you - Coffee will kill you - Wine will kill you - Butter will kill you - Red meat will kill you - Vitamins are bad for you...no they're good for you. Living next to high voltage power lines will slowly kill you. Flouride in the water is killing our children. California will fall into the ocean. Mad Cow Disease will destroy the US Beef Industry...The Hale-Bopp Comet is coming - TV will destroy your vision - UV Radiation will give everybody skin cancer - Our nations blood supply is tainted - We'll all be dead from asbestos particles that are everywhere in the air...and who could forget deadly RADON GAS? - And lead poisoning for everybody that just can't resist eating the paint chips off their walls - and let's not forget those mysterious cattle mutilations - and actually, the U.S. Economy should have totally crashed 15 years ago - and we were totally DOOMED once we went off of the Gold Standard...& remember silver hitting $80.00 an ounce? - I Don't know...Air pollution is killing all the trees - KILLER BEES were going to sting everybody to death - Aluminum pots and pans cause Alzheimer's Disease - According to the NRA we should have lost ALL of our firearms 6 different times already! The National Instant Check System was supposed to be the death toll to every gun owner everywhere. The Earth was actually supposed to "flip" on it's axis & toss us into the next ice age. You guys want 500 more? I remember when people got all spazzed out when they had to have an ordinary photo taken for their doggone photo drivers license. Forgive me for taking the Real ID Card "scare" with a huge grain of salt. No Wait...forget the salt...that will kill you too. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

May 13th, 2005, 06:56 AM	#11
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 17,476	Yawn Next topic please

May 13th, 2005, 12:00 PM	#14
HotGuns VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 4,293	Counterarguments against those that see no wrong with a national ID... Lady and Gentlemen... We are loosing our freedoms just a tiny itsy bit at a time. Not so much that you would take notice...because then you might actually try to do something about it. One day we'll wake up and realize that we have very little precious freedoms left. And we'll wonder where in the heck and HOW in the heck we lost it. Nope...it aint gonna happen all at once. There will be no stormtroopers going house to house or mass panic or chaos or anything like it. Control of everything and everyone will come not by force, but by good folks that trust the government to do the right thing. Its not going to be forced on them..they are gonna ask for it ! Wanna stop illegals form entering the country ? How about letting the government do the job that it is tasked to do ? Our border patrols are undermanned, understaffed and underfunded. If the U.S. was serious about the borders...they would simply shut them off. We could fence it off, and and apprehend ANYONE that trys to cross. We are the richest, strongest ,most powerful country in the world with a military second to none. Our police forces ALONE total more than the military of most countries in the world. We have the technology and the tools to do it right and do it well. What do we do instead ? We "force" everyone to get a national ID. We make it hard on them if they refuse to do so. We dont use physcial FORCE we simply make it too inconvient to not have one, so we use the force of inconvience which is a "force " that is just as powerful or more than physical force. Refuse to get the ID and all of a sudden you cant fly anywhere or cross the border or do certain things that you could do yestereday. We do it in the name of peace and safety. Look at the "Patriot Act". An act several hundred pages long that was passed a few weeks after some jets took out the World Trade Center. Most people that voted on it admitted to not even reading it. It was nessescary to fight terroism they were told. We have to do this in order to protect ourselves they were told. Anyone voting against it was accused of not wanting to protect the country from terrorism.They were even accused of being unpatriotic. So what we got, was a bill, that was voted into law... that basically usurps the Constitution of the US and all of the rights included in it if someone somewhere happpens to call you a "terrorist". Has anyone here even read it ? I have and I do not like what I have seen. It sets a dangerous precedent. It was a bill that was passed because good people expect those in government to do the right thing. There are those in government that could care less about what it right and what is wrong, they hold nothing dear and they have a dark agenda. It is this minority of folks that use those folks to their advantage to pass anything that they want to to further that agenda. Ill be the first to agree that it appears that we have made much progress in the way of gun rights...but have we ? We now have 38 states with licences to carry...a database of folks that are smart enoug to know that the cops cant be everywhere. These are not the clueless sheeple that never notice anything or expect free handouts form the government. The police are now enabled to carry their weapons pretty much anywhere anytime in the country. It had made it easier for me as a Deputy Sheriff to access info about you if you are a visiting officer. Now there is talk of a "national carry" which bascially says if you have a CCW from your home state you can carry anywhere. If that happens, we'll go from having a state database to a national database. Remember that these are "licenses." Any license to do anything can be revoked by either the local, state or federal government at any time for any reason they deem necessary. What used to be a right of protection is now a license for protection, yet many good folks fail to realize that when the give up a right for a license, they are giving someone somehwere the ability to tell them what they can or cant do. So I ask, are we REALLY making progress in the area of gunrights ? Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government REFUSES to act the right thing to do ? As I stated before...its just another brick in the wall...

May 13th, 2005, 02:36 PM	#19
HotGuns VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 4,293	U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned. More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration Well well... perhaps there is more to the big picture than most folks want to know about... let the illegals SWARM into the country unmolested. Eventually the average Joe is gonna get pissed and call for something to be done. OH WAIT...lets have a national ID so we can "know" who everyone is. Yeah...that'll "fix" em alright.... "Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed." Anyone with half of a brain can see that there is more than meets the eye here. The plan is working quite well it seems...

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