The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID

Monty · May 12th, 2005, 05:25 PM

http://jpfo.org/alert20050511.htm

Quote:

Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53027

Phone (262) 673-9745
Fax (262) 673-9746
May 11, 2005

The End of America: May 10, 2005

On Tuesday, May 10, 2005, America became a true police state. Your U.S. senators voted -- unanimously, with no discussion, and without even reading the bill -- to create a national ID card.

The Real ID Act blackmails state governments into turning their drivers licenses into a draconian tool of the federal homeland security apparatus. If states refuse, their citizens lose such "privileges" as being allowed to board an airplane, enter a federal building, or apply for social security. President Bush is expected to sign the bill eagerly on Thursday.

In three years -- by May 2008 -- this Stalin-style internal passport will be an American reality. But your government will have more control over you than Stalin ever dreamed in his most violent, vicious, anti-freedom dreams. (See links to the text of the law and articles about it at the bottom of this article.)

But that's only the beginning.

The creator of the Real ID Act, Rep. James Sensenbrenner, smiles and tells us that his Real ID Act is all about "solving illegal immigration" or "preventing terrorists from entering the country." This is one of the biggest of the thousands of "Big Lies" we've heard from the tyrants in Washington. The Real ID Act is about tracking and controlling Americans. You. Me. Our children. Everybody.

In May 2008, barring a miracle, America as we once knew it will be in ruins. It will be gone. And the rights of gun owners will be among the first scheduled for destruction.

GUN OWNERS: PREPARE TO RESIST

Here's your future:

*
You walk into a gun store, fill out your 4473, and show your government ID just as you now do. But instead of looking at your license and taking down some information, the clerk runs the license (which is likely to contain a radio-frequency ID chip) through a scanner. Your purchase is instantly recorded in your state drivers license registry. The federal government isn't currently allowed to keep a gun registry. But no problem; the Real ID act gives them an open door into your state records.

*
Complete information on every firearm you buy will be instantly available to every police officer (and possibly every government employee, store clerk, or computer hacker) you ever encounter. You'll be an instant criminal suspect every time you deal with someone who has access to the database.

*
Just as travelers are encouraged to get background checks and give fingerprints to avoid some of the worst excesses of TSA screening, gun owners will be encouraged to get background checks and give whatever biometric ID the Department of Homeland Security requires. This will be sold as a "benefit," ensuring you'll never again experience an "instant-check" delay. In fact, Congress, the ATF, or the FBI might even "mandate" 5-day or 15-day delays for anyone not enrolled in the "Trusted Firearms Buyer" program.

*
The private purchase "loophole" will be closed, so that all gun buyers must make trackable purchases. (The ultimate goal is for every purchase of every kind to be trackable.)

*
Buying ammo? The store scans your national ID card and -- bingo! -- your purchase is registered in the state database.

*
The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the amount or kind of ammunition you're "allowed" to purchase. Try to buy more and the database instantly rejects you.

*
The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the number of guns you may own. Try to buy more, and the database rejects you.

*
Eventually -- after the federal government "discovers" the obvious, that national ID won't stop either illegal immigration or terrorism -- the old attack on "evil guns" will resume. When they want your .50 BMG they'll know just where to find it (because the Real ID act says your home address _must_ be revealed). When they want your evil "scoped sniper rifle" (you know, the one you hunt deer with), they'll know just how to get it. Ditto with you "Saturday Night Special" or your "assault weapon."

*
If you don't surrender your guns, well, then the Department of Homeland Security will cut off your driving "privilege," as well as your right to escape the growing police state via plane. You'll be a prisoner in your own home, in your own country. Or you'll be forced to function as an outlaw, operating and living a precarious existence beneath the government radar.

PARANOID? OR PAYING ATTENTION?

You say these projections are ridiculous? That we're paranoid?

Well, frankly, if the Real ID Act doesn't make you paranoid, you're not paying enough attention. We ask you to consider the long-term impact of a few other acts of government.

In the 1930s, Congress promised us that our social security numbers would never, absolutely never, be used for identification. Now, they're the key to everything about us -- and without a social security number you won't get a drivers license and you won't even be "allowed" to drive after May 2008.

In 1913, Congress and the media swore to us that the brand- new income tax would only affect the rich. Well, how rich do you feel after paying 40 percent of your income (or more!) in taxes?

This is the way government works. They've even got a term for it: mission creep. And there is no creepier mission than the mission the federal government has currently set itself: to track everyone, everywhere, and to control what we do.

We warned you in The State vs. the People that this was coming. That book is still relevant, still a good read, and still filled with information about what our future will be like in this new American police state.

Be forewarned. Be aware.

REAL ID: IT'S THE LAW AND IT'S CRIMINAL

Please take a moment to go to this site: http://www.rebelfirerock.com/home.html. Click on the link that leads to the song "Justice Day." Listen to the music or read the lyrics. Here's the opening of the song:

You're the boot.
Stomping on the human face forever.
You're the eye.
Staring down on everyone and ever seeing all.
You're the lie.
Twisting all our minds into your whoredom.
You are Death.
You are war.
You are slavery.
You're the law.
You're the law.
You're the LAW!

George Orwell was the first to describe totalitarianism as a "boot stomping on the human face forever." But in Orwell's day Americans would have had a hard time believing that the law -- the good old, all-American legislature -- all those smiling senators and "representatives" would be the ones to plant their iron heels in our faces. Back in those innocent days, we imagined tyranny would come from outside.

Well, tyranny is here. And it's a gift from the very people we so trustingly put into office.

Tyranny is THE LAW.

Is this a way to run a country? Tacking something as onerous as national ID onto a must-pass bill and making it law without any debate? What does this say about people the gun owners consider their friends? In the House, where the bill containing the Real ID Act passed 368-58, only three Republicans voted against it. Here's the final roll-call vote so you can see how your own congressperson voted.

In the Senate, not one person cared enough about freedom to vote against it -- or even to demand that senators discuss it.

(The Real ID Act originally passed the House in February as a standalone bill (H.R. 418) by a vote of 261-to-161. House leaders, realizing national ID would have been in trouble in the Senate, then added it to a must-pass military appropriations bill in a cynical ploy to make it almost impossible to fight national ID.)

Turning America into a full-fledged police state was just business as usual to your representatives. And, just as Adolf Hitler scrupulously followed German law while committing his horrors, so your "representatives" and the bureaucrats you face at the national-ID drivers license bureau will also be following the law -- the Real ID law that allows them to enslave you.

(To see what a real Bill of Rights leader would do, read the novel Hope by Aaron Zelman and L. Neil Smith)

WHAT NEXT?

We have two choices now: Resist or submit.

More than 600 organizations, from the American Civil Liberties Union to the National Governors Association, opposed the bill. Even the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (which loves national ID and was largely responsible for an earlier attempt at such legislation nine years ago) criticized it.

We can expect lawsuits against national ID, including at least one suit led by state governments.

However, nearly all the opposition from state governments focuses on one area: They're upset because the federal government didn't offer them extra money to enslave us. If Congress bribes them with enough millions and billions, they'll gladly sell our freedom.

Ultimately, real resistance is up to us, as individuals. There are certain courses of action JPFO cannot recommend. But every freedom lover should be pleased if all the people who had a hand in creating Real ID act lost their jobs -- soon. And those individuals who truly value their (and their children's) futures should seriously consider making national ID their line in the sand.

We have already heard from many people saying they will drive without a license rather than submit to a license that has become a Stalinist control document. We just hope their resolve stays equally strong when they face a world in which it's impossible to buy, sell, retire, travel -- or buy a gun -- without national ID.

We ask you to remember men like Alexandr Solzhenitzyn and Natan Sharansky. Both stood up and boldly opposed a tyrannical regime in the Soviet Union. Both risked their lives. Both suffered horribly for their resistance and their protests. But eventually, they triumphed -- and the Soviet Union crumbled.

We are in need of such people, and such courage, today. We cannot wait for someone else to stand up and show that kind of integrity.

We must become the kind of people we admire if we are ever again to live in a nation we can trust.

G-d help us if we fail.*

- The Liberty Crew

Monty

Euclidean · May 12th, 2005, 06:14 PM

Oh screw this.

Seriously this is not acceptable.

No. What are some other ways to fight this before we're forced to become outlaws?

HotGuns · May 12th, 2005, 07:21 PM

Just another brick in the wall.

and one step closer to one world government...

Bud White · May 12th, 2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotGuns

Just another brick in the wall.

and one step closer to one world government...

YOU YES YOU STAND STILL LADDIE :firedevil

Euclidean · May 12th, 2005, 07:37 PM

I told myself I would purchase an AR 15 before Bush leaves office.

This clinches it. I want a Dillon 550 for Christmas.

Prospector · May 12th, 2005, 08:23 PM

Makes me want to puke...gotta go along with Euc....need to store up while the gettin is good....brass, bullets, powder, climate-controlled room to store all that crap! Why do they have to constantly make my life complicated?

Betty · May 12th, 2005, 09:57 PM

[sarcasm]If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of.[/sarcasm]

QKShooter · May 13th, 2005, 01:40 AM

Actually, I'm not quite biting on very much of this.
I've been hearing it all for too long.
It's over reactionary and it is slightly paranoid.
Is this the dreaded "666 Implanted Satanic Evil Computer Chip Mark Of The Beast" that folks have been fretting about ever since computers were invented?
First of all the government (FBI CIA Secret Service DHS) (pick one) can find out anything that they want to about you already...all the way back to your elementary school records and birth records. They can do it with or without your Social Security number.
And if they want to find things out about you then they will talk to your employer and your neighbors and your girlfriend/boyfriend and your paperboy & your high school English teacher and everybody and anybody else that you ever had any human contact with.
Already have a criminal record?...they have easy access to that already too.
And...if they want...they can get your dental records and your medical records and your military service records and they can already get an easy mouth swab warrant for your DNA....if they really need one.
And if you're caught driving while intoxicated you'll sure hafta submit to a BAC test. If you get busted for drugs...you ARE getting a blood test or giving a hair sample...no matter if you want to or not.
And if you murder your entire family they sure will seize your home computer & track your ISP address & find out everywhere you ever surfed on the web. And they can ALREADY plant a locator on your vehicle and GPS track you wherever you go...right out to your hidden weapon stash in the swamps.
And (Guess What) you're already being videotaped in every store and bank & convenience store that you walk into.
Your cell phone calls and locations & your home phone calls are already on permanent record. And you sure are on camera record when you walk into Wally World and buy your ammo tomorrow or when you walk into nearly any gun store.
Your purchase and your image is probably already being vid~documented making that purchase anyway. If not yet...then in a few years it sure will be.
So...if anything...a National ID would just speed their ability to look at what they can already GET if they need it anyway.
Everybody here already uses credit cards probably to buy nearly everything gun related anyway and every C.C. Card Company already has a searchable record of every firearm (& everything else) you have purchased with your credit card.
And all of your cell phone calls and your ATM transactions can already be tracked all over the US.
And they can already bug your house and your phone and your car and you would never even know it.
So...I mean if you want to sell your house & buy a shack in the woods and live like a hermit milking goats somewhere and barter chickens for Granola Bars and ammo...then I guess you're still pretty much Untouchable in the United States these days.
So what do I see happening in the United States these days?
I see an internal war going on against infiltrated foreign terrorists.
I see Law Enforcement Teamed up with some AMAZINGLY qualified Forensic Experts to solve some pretty horrific crimes.
I see government taking an active role in tracking down people that have some serious ill intentions for America.
I see Law Enforcement using every tool available to combat gang violence & wanton murder.
I see some SERIOUS work being done to track dangerous and deadly chemicals and goods.
D.O.T. has really tightened things up.
Airport security is the same joke it ALWAYS has been.
And basically I see EVERYBODY ELSE that is minding their own business being pretty much LEFT COMPLETELY ALONE. Am I wrong about that?
VIDEO FACE RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY is already a reality so ANY National ID Card is going to be TOTALLY OBSOLETE ANYWAY in another decade. As long as you have a face they are going to know who you are and where you are anyway & nothing is going to change that from happening.
I'll hafta look out my front window and see if I can spot some Nazi stormtroopers dressed up as American Gun Confiscation Soldiers out there.
Oh please...cut me a freakin' break!
And the very same argument that WE use about how many MILLIONS of guns are already "out there" on the streets is the very same reason why "door to door" confiscation will never work.
And...if guns and ammo get scarce enough then the universal law of "Supply And Demand" will "kick In" and illegal guns and ammo will get smuggled in right alongside the few billion pounds of drugs that are already being smuggled in. Meanwhile...the "wack" theory that our soldiers are going to obey orders and start roaming around the country waging war and shooting other Americans that don't "Obey" restrictive gun legislation is totally nuts. Don't all American soldiers have Moms and Dads and Brothers and Sisters & Aunts and Uncles?
It's a serious error to judge America by what Nazi Germany did. It really ISN'T going to happen here. Maybe 300 years from now...it might.
Meanwhile...ask yourself "Who is our Evil Government?"
The Government is just a whole bunch of ordinary Americans who all have wives and husbands and Families and extended families and friends who ARE NOT Government. So...who decides who gets jackbooted out of their respective beds in the middle of the night to do slave labor in the Yellowstone National Park Concentration Camp?
I'm sorry that I just never bought into the idea of America turning into Nazi Germany.
The actual scenario in this country (for anything like that to realistically happen) would already need to be SO BAD that there would already be a total breakdown of structured society & riots, complete chaos, and us "Gun Folks" would be in the hills by then anyway and our volunteer army soldiers would be there with us and not against us.
I could go on forever...but I'll guess I'll stop now.
You folks can sweat it all if you want to but I sure am not sweatin' it even one little bit.
Just my logical, humble, and happily optimistic opinion.
Oh...and wait...I think our gun laws are actually becoming LESS restrictive right now...huh? How could that be happening...we're all about to be attacked by American Nazis & they gave us BACK Hi Cap Magazines????

That was really dumb of the Nazi Government Of The United States Of America to do that.

Oh...wait...I dreamed that the assault weapons ban recently got lifted....

I'm confused???...why is the government making it EASIER for us to WAGE BETTER WAR on the government?

Bumper · May 13th, 2005, 02:13 AM

I have to say I am with QKShooter on this one. There was a time that I would have been stocking ammo and food and water and sandbags. Not now. I'm ready. Lay it on me. I want every damned illegal alien that comes across that border to know that he's not going to get a driver's license, employment, welfare or any other service we may provide. I want to know that the guy next to me at a checkout line or the car next to me at a traffic light is supposed to be in this country. By denying them drivers licenses, you deny them the ability to assimilate into our society. Lesser of two evils? Yeah, maybe but if you don't live in a border state (and close to the line) you have no idea what is coming across from Mexico. Mexican military routinely come across to shoot at our Border Patrol, not to mention the coyotes, MS-13, pedophiles, and other hardened criminals. Ever hear the statistics of how many Middle Easterners come across our borders in sombreros trying to pass as Mexicans? Research it. It's not something that might happen, it IS happening. We're being invaded, folks, as we sit here.

Is this Real ID card really the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commision, the One World Order finally coming to get us? I have been hearing about that crap for 20 years and I don't believe it for one minute. They won't so that for the same reason the Soviet Union didn't attack us years ago. Too many guns in the hands of American citizens. But there is no doubt in my mind that if we don't get our borders (or at least the people that are crossing them) controlled we're gonnna be in some deep doodoo pretty darned quick.

rfurtkamp · May 13th, 2005, 05:05 AM

I don't buy any of this myself either. ATF, for mom's sake, still doesn't require the dealers to fax in, send in, or otherwise do anything with the 4473s but store them. It'd be VERY easy for them to require secure online scan or fax or any of that - but they never have.

An ID card won't change that fact.

Past that, I work with data for a real living (my moonlighting days at the gun store don't exactly pay the bills, rather the opposite), and everything that's been said above in comment to this paranoia is dead true. Everything can already be tracked - if they wanted to.

The question, of course, is why. Trust me, we're not that interesting. I've seen too many people who didn't want to get the machine gun they'd wanted for years because they were afraid of the ATF guys, or would only buy guns private party lest someone kicked down their door, or carry illegally because they didn't want their name on the radar as owning a gun, or whatever.

Pre-internet, I might believe it was possible - now, what are they going to do? Shut down the entirety of US net access, including satellite, for a week while they kick in doors? Turn off all the phones so we can't call overseas or use carrier pidgeons or shortwave?

The feds aren't allowed to keep gun purchase records - so if there's a problem, blame your state. ID specifically forbids it. Move somewhere that protects your privacy if push comes to shove.

I'm not going to live my life in fear of what might happen. I don't fear prosecution. I don't fear persecution. If it begins, I'll deal with it to the best of my ability. Until then, I'm going to enjoy my life and hope that for once they can do something about the immigration problem.

The Feds have far more to worry about than my arsenal of many dozen firearms - or any of yours.

May 12th, 2005, 06:14 PM	#2
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	Oh screw this. Seriously this is not acceptable. No. What are some other ways to fight this before we're forced to become outlaws? __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

May 12th, 2005, 07:37 PM	#5
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	I told myself I would purchase an AR 15 before Bush leaves office. This clinches it. I want a Dillon 550 for Christmas. __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

May 12th, 2005, 08:23 PM	#6
Prospector Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 615	Makes me want to puke...gotta go along with Euc....need to store up while the gettin is good....brass, bullets, powder, climate-controlled room to store all that crap! Why do they have to constantly make my life complicated? __________________ "*Endeavor To Persevere*" Chief Dan George

May 12th, 2005, 09:57 PM	#7
Betty Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Nashville Posts: 2,718	[sarcasm]If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of.[/sarcasm] __________________ "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa Broodings, Blunders and Broadsides: The Betty Blog (Friends only - Email me through there to let me know who you are first!)

May 13th, 2005, 01:40 AM	#8
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, PA. Posts: 18,578	Sorry...I don't Buy It. Actually, I'm not quite biting on very much of this. I've been hearing it all for too long. It's over reactionary and it is slightly paranoid. Is this the dreaded "666 Implanted Satanic Evil Computer Chip Mark Of The Beast" that folks have been fretting about ever since computers were invented? First of all the government (FBI CIA Secret Service DHS) (pick one) can find out anything that they want to about you already...all the way back to your elementary school records and birth records. They can do it with or without your Social Security number. And if they want to find things out about you then they will talk to your employer and your neighbors and your girlfriend/boyfriend and your paperboy & your high school English teacher and everybody and anybody else that you ever had any human contact with. Already have a criminal record?...they have easy access to that already too. And...if they want...they can get your dental records and your medical records and your military service records and they can already get an easy mouth swab warrant for your DNA....if they really need one. And if you're caught driving while intoxicated you'll sure hafta submit to a BAC test. If you get busted for drugs...you ARE getting a blood test or giving a hair sample...no matter if you want to or not. And if you murder your entire family they sure will seize your home computer & track your ISP address & find out everywhere you ever surfed on the web. And they can ALREADY plant a locator on your vehicle and GPS track you wherever you go...right out to your hidden weapon stash in the swamps. And (Guess What) you're already being videotaped in every store and bank & convenience store that you walk into. Your cell phone calls and locations & your home phone calls are already on permanent record. And you sure are on camera record when you walk into Wally World and buy your ammo tomorrow or when you walk into nearly any gun store. Your purchase and your image is probably already being vid~documented making that purchase anyway. If not yet...then in a few years it sure will be. So...if anything...a National ID would just speed their ability to look at what they can already GET if they need it anyway. Everybody here already uses credit cards probably to buy nearly everything gun related anyway and every C.C. Card Company already has a searchable record of every firearm (& everything else) you have purchased with your credit card. And all of your cell phone calls and your ATM transactions can already be tracked all over the US. And they can already bug your house and your phone and your car and you would never even know it. So...I mean if you want to sell your house & buy a shack in the woods and live like a hermit milking goats somewhere and barter chickens for Granola Bars and ammo...then I guess you're still pretty much Untouchable in the United States these days. So what do I see happening in the United States these days? I see an internal war going on against infiltrated foreign terrorists. I see Law Enforcement Teamed up with some AMAZINGLY qualified Forensic Experts to solve some pretty horrific crimes. I see government taking an active role in tracking down people that have some serious ill intentions for America. I see Law Enforcement using every tool available to combat gang violence & wanton murder. I see some SERIOUS work being done to track dangerous and deadly chemicals and goods. D.O.T. has really tightened things up. Airport security is the same joke it ALWAYS has been. And basically I see EVERYBODY ELSE that is minding their own business being pretty much LEFT COMPLETELY ALONE. Am I wrong about that? VIDEO FACE RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY is already a reality so ANY National ID Card is going to be TOTALLY OBSOLETE ANYWAY in another decade. As long as you have a face they are going to know who you are and where you are anyway & nothing is going to change that from happening. I'll hafta look out my front window and see if I can spot some Nazi stormtroopers dressed up as American Gun Confiscation Soldiers out there. Oh please...cut me a freakin' break! And the very same argument that WE use about how many MILLIONS of guns are already "out there" on the streets is the very same reason why "door to door" confiscation will never work. And...if guns and ammo get scarce enough then the universal law of "Supply And Demand" will "kick In" and illegal guns and ammo will get smuggled in right alongside the few billion pounds of drugs that are already being smuggled in. Meanwhile...the "wack" theory that our soldiers are going to obey orders and start roaming around the country waging war and shooting other Americans that don't "Obey" restrictive gun legislation is totally nuts. Don't all American soldiers have Moms and Dads and Brothers and Sisters & Aunts and Uncles? It's a serious error to judge America by what Nazi Germany did. It really ISN'T going to happen here. Maybe 300 years from now...it might. Meanwhile...ask yourself "Who is our Evil Government?" The Government is just a whole bunch of ordinary Americans who all have wives and husbands and Families and extended families and friends who ARE NOT Government. So...who decides who gets jackbooted out of their respective beds in the middle of the night to do slave labor in the Yellowstone National Park Concentration Camp? I'm sorry that I just never bought into the idea of America turning into Nazi Germany. The actual scenario in this country (for anything like that to realistically happen) would already need to be SO BAD that there would already be a total breakdown of structured society & riots, complete chaos, and us "Gun Folks" would be in the hills by then anyway and our volunteer army soldiers would be there with us and not against us. I could go on forever...but I'll guess I'll stop now. You folks can sweat it all if you want to but I sure am not sweatin' it even one little bit. Just my logical, humble, and happily optimistic opinion. Oh...and wait...I think our gun laws are actually becoming LESS restrictive right now...huh? How could that be happening...we're all about to be attacked by American Nazis & they gave us BACK Hi Cap Magazines???? That was really dumb of the Nazi Government Of The United States Of America to do that. Oh...wait...I dreamed that the assault weapons ban recently got lifted.... I'm confused???...why is the government making it EASIER for us to WAGE BETTER WAR on the government? __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here. Last edited by QKShooter; May 13th, 2005 at 02:03 AM.

May 12th, 2005, 07:21 PM	#3
HotGuns VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 4,281	Just another brick in the wall. and one step closer to one world government...

May 13th, 2005, 02:13 AM	#9
Bumper Administrator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 12,855	I have to say I am with QKShooter on this one. There was a time that I would have been stocking ammo and food and water and sandbags. Not now. I'm ready. Lay it on me. I want every damned illegal alien that comes across that border to know that he's not going to get a driver's license, employment, welfare or any other service we may provide. I want to know that the guy next to me at a checkout line or the car next to me at a traffic light is supposed to be in this country. By denying them drivers licenses, you deny them the ability to assimilate into our society. Lesser of two evils? Yeah, maybe but if you don't live in a border state (and close to the line) you have no idea what is coming across from Mexico. Mexican military routinely come across to shoot at our Border Patrol, not to mention the coyotes, MS-13, pedophiles, and other hardened criminals. Ever hear the statistics of how many Middle Easterners come across our borders in sombreros trying to pass as Mexicans? Research it. It's not something that might happen, it IS happening. We're being invaded, folks, as we sit here. Is this Real ID card really the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commision, the One World Order finally coming to get us? I have been hearing about that crap for 20 years and I don't believe it for one minute. They won't so that for the same reason the Soviet Union didn't attack us years ago. Too many guns in the hands of American citizens. But there is no doubt in my mind that if we don't get our borders (or at least the people that are crossing them) controlled we're gonnna be in some deep doodoo pretty darned quick. __________________ Bumper Administrator DefensiveCarry.com Forum Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

May 13th, 2005, 05:05 AM	#10
rfurtkamp Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pocatello, Idaho Posts: 940	I don't buy any of this myself either. ATF, for mom's sake, still doesn't require the dealers to fax in, send in, or otherwise do anything with the 4473s but store them. It'd be VERY easy for them to require secure online scan or fax or any of that - but they never have. An ID card won't change that fact. Past that, I work with data for a real living (my moonlighting days at the gun store don't exactly pay the bills, rather the opposite), and everything that's been said above in comment to this paranoia is dead true. Everything can already be tracked - if they wanted to. The question, of course, is why. Trust me, we're not that interesting. I've seen too many people who didn't want to get the machine gun they'd wanted for years because they were afraid of the ATF guys, or would only buy guns private party lest someone kicked down their door, or carry illegally because they didn't want their name on the radar as owning a gun, or whatever. Pre-internet, I might believe it was possible - now, what are they going to do? Shut down the entirety of US net access, including satellite, for a week while they kick in doors? Turn off all the phones so we can't call overseas or use carrier pidgeons or shortwave? The feds aren't allowed to keep gun purchase records - so if there's a problem, blame your state. ID specifically forbids it. Move somewhere that protects your privacy if push comes to shove. I'm not going to live my life in fear of what might happen. I don't fear prosecution. I don't fear persecution. If it begins, I'll deal with it to the best of my ability. Until then, I'm going to enjoy my life and hope that for once they can do something about the immigration problem. The Feds have far more to worry about than my arsenal of many dozen firearms - or any of yours. __________________ Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

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