Euclidean

Tell you what Tourist.

I encourage everyone to read what you've pulled from the Scripture, and what I've pulled here from the Scripture. Now don't just read these verses in isolation, read the chapter before and after to see it in context. That step is important because it's dangerous to pick up little bits out of context.

I see what you're saying Tourist. It's not like we are disagreeing. It's just I don't see how you're pulling that meaning out of the passages you are referencing.

Exodus 22:2-3

Now if you read Matthew 5 in context, you can make the conclusion that vengeance for a transgression is the duty of a government. Thus, you "turn the other cheek" and let the authorities deal out the proper punishment. The Sermon on the Mount qualifies the famous "eye for an eye" statement. I chose that verse from Exodus because it's the perfect example. If someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night and you put him down in defense if your household, you haven't done anything wrong. However, if circumstances allow you to escape and you seek retribution for the crime instead of escaping, you've done something wrong.

Thus self defense is supported but vengeance and personal retribution are not. And we can clearly see from the ministry of Christ that aggression is used sometimes. Christ himself stormed the temple and turned over the moneychanger's tables. Christ asserts himself when Satan tries to tempt him. Christ himself cast the demons out and sent Legion into the pigs, which in turned drowned themselves. For goodness sake the second coming of Christ certainly sounds violent. However, this is aggression used to uphold the will of God and not for some kind of personal revenge.

This idea that defense is okay but vengeance is not is a cohesive theme throught the Scriptures:

Proverbs 25:26

1st Timothy 5:8

Psalm 144:1

Matthew 4:7

Tourist it's not that I disagree with you. I agree with the point having knowledge of the Scripture is so basic it precedes material needs. I agree that the Bible teaches non aggression.

However it does not teach pacifism. It says not to take personal revenge for a transgression, and to take practical and prudent measures to provide for one's self and one's family.

Of course Christ doesn't harp on for hours and hours on the subject of self defense. He doesn't harp on how to properly drive a stick shift or use a microwave oven either.

At any rate I submit the Scripture clearly says personal defense is okay while personal vengeance is wrong. I don't want to debate this for 10 pages as nothing I say on an internet is going to convince anyone to change their spiritual beliefs. I therefore appeal to anyone who disagrees with me to consider the very real possibility of being targetted for violence by extremists due to their spiritual beliefs even if you don't agree with this interpretation.

__________________
I am The Armed Educator.

The Tourist

There was a great debate, as well, when Christ walked the earth. The Jewish community at that time believed a 'messiah' would come, and by force of arms free them from Roman rule.

Even the Apostles misunderstood the true purpose of His teaching and the role He was to play, despite the scriptures and the stated purpose. Silent, like a lamb to the slaughter.

Every time a sword is mentioned it refers to how the word of God transends the human experience. I come as a sword. Precisely. In following Christ you will be 'cut off' from your previous sinful life. Even if that places you at odds to your family.

He even states that His coming places Fathers against sons.

If this 'metal sword' thing was his true meaning and purpose, why didn't He own one Himself? We have Bible testimony that the only thing Christ ever owned was a garment woven as 'one piece.' The soldiers at the Crucifixion cast lots (throw dice) to divide the spoils, and then decide that there is no way to divide a one piece garment. They will have to cut it.

If Christ had something as snazzy as 'The Sword of the Lord,' trust me, the soldiers would have been casting lots for that and not some shirt. It is Christ's follower that pulls a sword upon His arrest, He has none himself.

In fact, had Christ ever owned even a kitchen knife I opine that The Crusades would have been fought to recover His shiv, not some garden variety cup.

More to the point, I don't remember reading that Christ even borrowed a knife to cut anything. After all, he 'broke' the bread, he did not slice it.

jdsumner

Ecclesiastes 3, verse 3:

A time to KILL, and a time to HEAL; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(by the way, I loathe to quote verse without the entire passage, but for the sake of space....)

As to the 'turn the other cheek'. Turning the other cheek to a mild attack or a verbal attack is different than someone attempting to thrust a rapier through your sternum. Turning the other cheek implies to me an attack that can be walked away from. Jesus also told us that he could have called down a legion of angels to stop His crucifixion HAD HE WANTED TO. Dying for the 'greater good' was His choice. We must also make that choice individually. Is it greater to die by the hands of a thug and to leave a family, or is it the greater good to preserve your family and your life at the cost of the attacker's?

Dan

The Tourist

People were being tortured and killed in Judea for many decades before, during and after Christ walked the earth. By your argument, He needed no more authority to take up arms than that.

As for the 'legion of angels,' Christ was responding to a question. To goad Him, the governor asked about his followers. Christ responded that if this (the earth) was His Kingdom, there would be a legion of angels. Satan is considered the head of state on earth.

Again, where's the metal sword, where's a Biblical reference to Christ owning or using a sword or organizing the faithful to rise up?

And BTW, there are many parables about being watchful, i.e., regarding the second coming. People refer to the guard on duty but seem to neglect the ten brides. Both are the same story. If you are prudent, you stand watch (for the return.) If you neglect your studies (trim your wick), then the bridegroom comes and goes.

There is a simpler way to depict this. The Ten Commandments order, "Thou Shall Not Murder."

In the OT, God tells Moses, "I am I and I change not."

God is against murder, and He has not changed his mind. Christ comes to carry out the wishes of The Father, not sharpen the swords of the faithful. In fact, He asks you to do more.

By Roman law, a soldier could ask a civilian to carry a bundle for one mile marker. Christ said that, "If a Man asks you to walk a mile, go with him twain." In other words, give your enemies even more. If Christ was into knives, and the death of an intruder by a guard was the true nature of the parable, then why didn't Christ ask the faithful to gig the Roman twain on the Apian way?

After all, the faithful guy had just sold his only coat to buy a gladius. It seems logical that if Christ wants a guy armed to fight a just cause, then sticking a shiv to a Roman would be fulfilling Christ's true advice.

Euclidean

Then might I ask Tourist what precisely is your rationale for even owning such a thing as a pistol?

You're essentially repeating the same thing as I just said. Don't go out and exact vengence.

__________________
I am The Armed Educator.

jdsumner

The Tourist

Euc,

The Commandment is translated as 'not to murder.'

The problem is that Christ considered 'hate' to be as severe as murder. Actually, the case is that 'he who breaks one, breaks them all.'

Self defense does not appear to be against Biblical teaching. Once again, it is the 'word of God' is to be viewed as important.

For example, when Moses was alive, God showed him an area that was to be cleansed of Phillistines so tha God's people could settle on that land. They were also admonished not to breed with the local women as it would water down their teaching.

After the death of Moses, Joshua led the tribe, and they failed to meet God's timetable for cleansing the land. And they were mingling with the women.

In a strange act, God rebuked Joshua for not killing fast enough.

This was Joshua's message from God, just as death for sin was onto Christ. In fact, Christ asks God three times to take the job away.

To my way of thinking, it is clear that there is a metal sword in the hand of Joshua, but a purpose for Christ, and clearly not as a rabble rouser.

RSSZ

One of my "HOLY MEN" once said ----"praise the lord and pass the ammunition"------People that refuse to protect themselves FOR WHATEVER REASON had better not be waitin' for me to protect you----it aint gonna happen !! My God don't want me to protect you !!

christn waryr

proclaim ye this amoung the gentiles; prepare war wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, I am strong I thought I would throw these verses in. I know on the "united nations" building they have the verse in the bible saying "beat your swords into plowshares and your spears into pruning hooks" It is meant to be how it will be when Christ returnes to this world at the end of the "end times" and he truly brings peace; but, the "united nations" wants to build a worldly empire without GOD any how ................... beat my plowshare into an ak-47 & my pruning hooks into a custom harley davidson!!!!

The Tourist

I was going to ask for a Valmet, the thinking man's assault rifle. My bike is sort of custom, the bulk of the money is in the engine.

In the after life, I'm going to ask for a little out of the way planet with beautiful scenery and brand new seamless six lane highways that go everywhere. I intend to take my little Bichon, Sasha, who at this end of times can talk.

My bike won't be as flashy as some Seraphs might have, again the grace is in the engine.

But if you put a 127-inch S&S EFI engine into a Dyna made completely of titanium and scandium, the beast ought to really scoot!

Oh, and I'll be slimmer there, so there's a few more pounds.