Euclidean

Not to center on any one particular creed or denomination here, but how many of you have had this conversation at a place of worship?

"What would you do if someone <insert horrible thing here>..."

To which you respond:

"I would shoot them. They left me no alternative."

That's it in a nutshell.

And then, and then, you hear this chesnut:

"I don't believe in violence. God will protect me."

It's a sticky wicket isn't it? I honestly believe God does protect me. With all the crazy stuff happening, there's no other explanation for why it doesn't happen to me.

But I'm reminded of the old joke:

That's kind of how I look at this. I have used this joke, which most people know, to make a point: Don't stand there in front of God and have God say "I sent you two pistols and a shotgun."

The Scripture even says that he who has no sword should sell his garment and buy one. Jesus tells his disciples to arm themselves with swords. It also says do not tempt God.

What was a sword? It was a tool that could be easily carried on one's person that was well designed expressly for fighting other people. It had no other actual use beyond fighting and perhaps some training excercises. Sounds like a handgun to me.

If nothing else, even if you have a different interpretation of the Bible or a different faith altogether, consider how much violence has come the way of people who believe in any kind of theology, especially one that preaches non violence. How many Christians were fed to Lions? How many Jews are slaughtered in the Middle East for their religious beliefs? How long will it be before some nutjob commits a violent hate crime against non radical Muslims?

At this point I usually get an acknowledging nod but just as often a dismissive "You just don't get it."

I guess I don't. I thought God wanted me to die on his time and not someone else's.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

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P95Carry

No specific religion here and I won't get into discussions on all that are out there.

I do tho believe simply - I am my own protector - and of those near and dear. I cannot and should not expect anyone to do what is my own responsibility. Too many folks abrogate responsibility - assuming ''someone else'' will take care of them (be it deity or something else)... or they just put heads in the sand thinking ''it'll never happen to me''.

We have tools, gifts, skills - to which most of us will add training to some degree. That is so we are equipped better to look after our own safety. OUR responsibility - no one elses! (IMO!!)

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Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."

If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

Bud White

All i say is i believe Walk softly and carry a really big stick .. and i will state if asked at a picnic or dinner i will use the big stick if need be

Team American

The Lord will provide....thats why He sent us John Browning

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spacemanspiff

my personal experience with the spiritual side of it is a bit different.

see, when i was growing up and was raised with certain values, i firmly believed in non-violent passivity. someone strikes you, you turn the other cheek. dont lift a hand to defend yourself.
now, i would have to say that i never was shown this to be, i dunno, scriptual, just anectdotal. i didnt ever research the concept of selfdefense and pretty much always figured whatever happens to me happens to me. i can't expect god to smite whomever tries to bring me harm, because there is evidence to show that god does not shield all of his followers.

anyways, point i'm trying to make with that is simply that until i was about 25 or so, i never really thought that self defense was an avenue i could take if i wanted gods blessing. then i bought a gun just for giggles. and another. and another. and another. then i got interested in a CHL.
my next step was to do indepth research in the publications produced by the church i was raised in. i discovered that what i was led to believe was not based in scripture, but rather bias from a few individuals, who took the liberty of painting 'self defense' with a broad stroke making it synonymous with 'murder'. i discovered that the advice put on paper with scriptual basis really mirrored that what self defense instructors preach: Escape if possible, De-escalate the situation if possible, If all else fails, do what you must to survive.

the purpose of those who preached their own interpretations when i was young, i believe it was more with the goal of Martyr in mind. i think theres a difference though, when one is attacked physically because of their faith. in my opinion, (and i apply this only to myself and no one else) i think that being a martyr for what i believe in is acceptable. however, being a martyr so johnnycrackhead can get his next fix, really isnt part of my overall 'spiritual plan', if there ever was one that is.

but to this day i encounter people from the church i was raised in that still equate simple self defense with murder. but since that is how they have interpreted things for themselves, their own conscience has accepted that line of thought, therefore, i won't try to change their minds.

we all will face the clearing at the end of the path.

Fjolnirsson

Hmm, interesting question. I'm in the minority here, I'm sure. People of my faith actually practiced human sacrifice until about 900 years ago. Mostly criminals. We're a little more politically correct now.
However, it's definitely not a "turn the other cheek" type of faith. As far as carrying a weapon and using one in self-defense, here's a verse from the Havamal (sort of a "holy book" for us, believed to be the literal words of the Allfather):

Let a man never stir on his road a step
without his weapons of war;
for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise
of a spear on the way without.Havamal 38

As far as believing that "god" will protect me, the usual course of things is that my gods expect me to do for myself. After I have exhausted the options, then they may be persuaded to lend a hand. Great believers in self-reliance, my ancestors.

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The Tourist

This is probably one of the most misquoted lines of the Bible. It is used to justify aggression. It actually means the opposite.

The 'true word' in the Bible is known as 'the sword of the Lord.' Another passage says that God's tongue is like a double edged sword.

The word of God is looked upon as such an important aspect of life that it supercedes all other needs. That is, if you do not know the word of God, it is better to sell off survival needs (i.e., warm clothes) and use that money to buy a copy of the scriptures.

You could translate this, in our time, that anyone who misunderstands this passage does not know God. It would be better for this man to sell off his guns and use the money to buy a Bible.

Euclidean

I dunno Tourist.

Here's several versions of Luke 22:36

http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm

Here's several versions of Luke 22:38

http://bible.cc/luke/22-38.htm

They sound like they're talking about literal swords to me. If you read the chapter before and after it makes more sense to me they'd be talking about literal swords, especially considering what happens to the high priest's servant's ear. Every one I know who's been to seminary who's ever commented on these verses interprets them as referring to literal swords, and those people study the Scripture like I study math.

Christ also said to put one's sword "in its place". I don't want to bore the forum with quotes, but in the context of that situation I believe that was a literal sword too.

Notice he didn't say "Get rid of your sword" or "You shouldn't have a sword".

But this I suppose is the same basic idea. Putting the sword in its place has the same basic intention behind it.

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Bumper

Hey, don't stop now, I finally found something I can agree with you about, I think it is literal as well. Wait, I think I agreed with you once before on a Springfield 1911....

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The Tourist

Okay, fair enough. You say the 'sword' they were talking about was a metal object, I opine that it is the true word of God.

Get your Bible out and now post all of the verses Jesus teaches about knife fighting, trapping, thrusting, sharpening and advice on the best Roman gladius to buy for a fair price.

I do remember this 'other cheek' business. Strange advice to give to a beloved brother he just told to arm himself.

Or, you could find a good Daniel/Revelation seminar in your area and find out for yourself.

Do you think Christ was a clip-point man, or more of a drop-point-hunter kind of a guy?

edit: Mt 26:52 - Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword."

Euc--He said 'perish.' "Hey, Eugene, sell off the new Gucci coat of yours and go buy a new SIG P-229. It's a great gun, everyone who buys one gets killed."