Kerbouchard

GPS, all great points, and unfortunately the anti's know that they are good points, too, because they use the same ones. If we can confiscate all the guns then we can restore law and order and make sure everybody is safe. If all the guns are taken away, then we will know that the only people with guns are the good guys, therefore it will make it easier to control, I mean, ensure everybody's safety.

__________________
Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.

http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

Who is John Galt?

Shadowsbane

Reading through this thread has reminded me of the saying I have heard many times over.

"If you are thinking of burying your guns, it is probably time to dig them up."

OPFOR is 100% correct about the end result of a conflict with the police/national guard. Notwithstanding the rule of law and what is right or wrong the simple fact is that police have the resources to outgun just about anything the average citizen can throw at them. In the simple numbers game citizen verses police equals dead citizen, and maybe a wounded police officer. They are well oranized, better armed and typically are not going to come with much warning, and even if one were to win (not very likely) you would only win once others will come to find out what happened to their comrades. It is not like they are running around without comunications or some sort of command.

In short it would be a death in vain and more often than not completely pointless.

However, the opposing argument is also correct. If you comply with illegal orders then you have just validated them. That goes for both sides (Police or Citizen) Anyone coming to my home with the intent of doing something to lessen my chances of survival is my enemy. Regardless of who they are. (Including myself) If you give up your weapons you lessen your chances of survival greatly. Anyone forcing you to do so is an enemy. Hiding them is risky because if they believe you have more, they will attempt to find them, therefore damaging your home even more. Best case your ability to protect yourself will be severely hampered, and in the heat of the moment it is hard to know whether or not some things are only temporary.

So the basic situation is that if you fight the police or whoever is confiscating firearms then you die. If you comply with illegal orders then you validate those orders and severely decrease your odds of survival.

So what solution would be the best? My opinion is to evac and get out of Dodge before it gets so bad. Avoid the entire situation that has no possible happy ending. Prepare a BoB, keep legal documents in a position ready to move quickly if need be, make plans for not just one but several BoL involving extended family/friends if need be. Make sure you have insurance for everything that you cannot take, and take everything that matters or that you will need. Things can be replaced but not people.

The only way to win this game is to refuse to play by the rules. If such a situation turns into a "Post Apocalyptic War" then you are better prepared, if not then you are still breathing and so are all other parties involved. Prevention is key.


All that being said keep in mind that just like laws involving criminals now, all those little rules about not taking your weapons during an emergency have to be enforced. Perhaps I am being too pessimistic about it but I do not forsee much enforcement of such laws. If they (governments) were interested in civil rights involving defense one would not easily go broke defending themselves in court over legal shootings (civil trials)

__________________
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

azmnfordtrk07

The problem I have and see and maybe this is the OPs intent is that what if the Katrina style gun confiscation was taken out on a large scale, or if it was local, local, local until everything was taken?

I realize short term hide guns, give some sacrificial ones etc. I realize one person dead isn't going to mean a whole lot and the police forces have vast resources and will mow you down. I also know that most citizens of the national guard if the NG would represent ahem certain things/people in our society would go along with confiscation. In reality most are probably the other way but if govt had control or riots or some other event they could make a case and do this. Sidenote: I deeply respect LEOs, NG, military and all others who serve us, I would be deeply, deeply hurt if I had to ever pull a trigger on them, however a thin like NO makes me angry at them that they didn't even respect their own oath. Although you can understand their perilous situation too. I am torn.

If this all happend and it was long term what could 2nd A people do?? Those laws against confiscation would be easily overlooked by a politician/governor or a federal law could trump it. When the SHTF they will take them away, they don't even care about the current laws and constitution. So, why would they care about that, and relying on lawyers after the fact protecting your rights equals you already lost.

I don't have an answer. The only thing I can think of is to organize a well trained and put together militia or a neighborhood group that can resist effectively. I know good militas exist, but I just can't get over the connotations of you are anti-govt etc. But, if you were just one man in the sea, 12 officers with AR or NG with ARs and you are gone. They go on to next house etc. I am sure lots of gun owners would give them up making you a minority. Woudl your death radiate though the media,, no. Because a socialist govt that takes away guns, controls the media, and has an emotional control over alot of the population (sheep).

A organized group is great, but hard to do, takes time, cost money, has negative connotation, most won't devote time. Govt. especially ATF would love to raid you or FBI and say you are terrorists or anarchists. However I think if they go local to local to local, one man to one man they could effectively disarm the nation, it could happen and its naive to think otherwise.

People always talk about the 2a being the ultimate check, it is, the 2a is the right on which all others is founded and is the ultimate check against the govt and dictators etc. However we and many others throw this around, but when its actually thought about.... what can we do??? Sure if another country attacked we would unify and that country would be hurting, but if our own govt did this.... the dis-unity would be great and thus would they have a chance??

That is what I think the state of the OPs original intent, forget about Katrina and NO, think of total ban and confiscation but in a way its done one by one w/out people sort of realizing and people give up guns easy like in NO, and those that don't are eliminated one by one and small groups like neighborhood are eliminated too. Think about how big the NG can be, how much a police SWAT team can do.

This is all depressing I know, but this needs to be discussed more, we love the 2a as are anchor, outwardly it looks great, in practicality is it nothing more than some words we can't enforce because we have given up so much freedoms or the govt is too big already???


Another thing is would you live in the mtns, or leave the country?? That might be a good thing to do, you see it all the time the refugees or whatever, Mexico may see a reverse in the near future:)

Don't be offended at anything I have said, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I want people to see this in a different light. Our 2A rights may be impossible to uphold in the current state of our nation. Its scary but we need to deal with it, I am now going to cry myself to sleep as I ponder this situation, I had never thought about it before like this until now.

Edited to Add: Sorry my style of writing, especially late at night, is less than formal, I have more education than what is represented by mis-spellings and use of slang of the teenager types. Don't take it to mean I am a kid. I am tired and am mentally dumping information on a new to me thought. Thanks!

Later,
Paul

OPFOR

Technically, it is possible to get a license to carry a concealed firearm for personal defense. Practically, it is a priveledge for the wealthy and politically connected. Firearms are basically illegal, with few exceptions. Anything firearms related is VERY expensive. All ammo imported into the country is controlled by the Army, and it is a cumbersome process to say the least. It is reasonable to say that the law abiding population is disarmed. Despite this, Brazil has a thriving IPSC community. However, the shooters are almost always police, military, or very rich.

The opposite, of course, is true of the criminal population - they are among the most heavily armed in the world. In certain areas of Rio (and a few other places), the police only enter in military armored vehicles. They are met by heavy machine gun fire, grenades, fully barricaded fighting positions, and so on. There were 1,300 people killed by the police in Rio last year (compared to 7 in Detroit). For a while, there was one innocent bystander PER DAY being killed by stray bullets. The murder rates in Brazil are among the highest in the world.

Keeping things in perspective - violent crime in Brazil is usually concentrated in certain areas, and is predominantly bad guy on bad guy. This is a country the size of the lower 48, with almost 200,000,000 people. Most of them are peaceful, law abiding folks just living their lives. The country itself is incredibly beautiful. The crime here (as in the US) grabs all the headlines but, unless you live in a favela, it isn't a way of life.

__________________
"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

Arisin Wind

I wonder if our forefathers had the same conversations we are now when they were deciding to take up arms and resist the British. "They are better armed then we are and we will be mowed down." "They are just doing their jobs." "It will get better after a while." "They have the law on their side." "We could be hanged if we are caught." "There are so few of us."

cdwolf

uh..yes!! Then after they won they wrote something on a piece of paper about how it will be from then on!

__________________
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Kerbouchard

axmnfordtrk07,

That actually was the exact point of my post, I was wondering how long it would take somebody to come up with that conclusion. I believe you are right on, and I don't think there is a dang thing we can do about it, for all the reasons you mentioned.

The only way to win this type of battle is politically. So, you think, well, great. We're doing good on that front, and making enormous progress. And I would tend to agree. In a day to day 'normal' society, I think we are doing pretty well. But in a 'National Emergency', or 'National Fuel Shortage', or any other type of catch-phrase that they decide to use, the 2nd admendment and the politicians promises won't mean a thing.

Shadowsbane, I love that quote...I had never heard it before, but it bears remembering and repeating, so...

"If you are thinking of burying your guns, it is probably time to dig them up."

Airsin Wind, their revolution was much easier than any future revolution on U.S. soil could possibly be. We cheated during our revolution. We learned from, arguably, some of the best guerilla fighters to have ever lived, and employed their tactics against an army who liked to use formations and commands to fire. They didn't have a chance. And then there is also that pesky little fact that our civilians had the same types of arms as the British...

__________________
Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.

http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

Who is John Galt?

Arisin Wind

"No one said it will be easy." George Washington at Valley Forge 1777.

Kerbouchard

Slight difference between 'not easy' and impossible.

The Americans were united, for the most part, against the British. It was also easy to tell the British soldiers from the Unruly American's...The bright Red uniforms and flags helped. The British did not have electronic surveillance, and again, the American upstarts were comparably armed to the British.

If/when this happens, it will be on an individual scale, or at most a local scale, which would be repeated many, many times.

__________________
Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.

http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

Who is John Galt?

OPFOR

And I don't think France would come to the aid of the "revolutionaries" this time, either...

__________________
"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."