Disckson City, PA steal gun and violate 2nd amendment as well as other laws! - Page 10

SelfDefense · May 14th, 2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgg9

The bottom line is that you think that if any part of the public are uncomfortable with OC, it is the gun owner's duty to not OC....and that exercising this right is somehow "provoking" LE.

Not at all. What I am saying is the piblic IS uncomfortable with OC and if there is an alternative then it should be highly considered. Yes, flaunting your gun is absolutely provoking some type of interaction. (Hopefully, it is not the bad guy shooting you first)

Quote:

Sometimes, to secure a right, you have to eventually refuse to sit in the back of the bus. Many people were saying the same thing you are about MLK.

The right was already secured. These types of incidents tend to motivate the antis to restrict our rights.

Now, if you move the same outing to Illinois then you have an act of civil disobedience that has the potential of being on a par with Rosa Parks.

jcheinaman · May 14th, 2008, 07:37 PM

Self Defense, Here is a good video for you to watch regarding willingly giving info to the police. It is done by a defense attorney and a detective.

Don't Talk to the Police- Prof. James Duane

Also the times tribune got the following comment from the Lackawana county DA.

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

kpw · May 14th, 2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfDefense

The difference is that open carry invites scrutiny. Concealed carry means no one knows you have a gun. The patrons chose the most imprudent method available. And they did it intentionally. It is absolutely legal. That does not make it wise. It is legal for me to provide my bank account number over the internet. Not a smart thing to do.

So your point is that although it is legal, it's not a good idea because an individual or two may be uncomfortable with it and that it is therefore, reasonable that they are hassled/harrassed by the police? I'm not trying to speak for you but it seems that is what you imply.

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It was peaceful until the police began their investigation.

That's for sure. Although, interogation might be a better term.

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I previously posted the reason I suggested that hypothetical. It forces people to consider another view. Many simply discount any information other than their view. The patrons could not know why or what the police were investigating. Or, perhaps they called in the report themselves...

Wow! I think I'll refrain from replying to that.

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Apparently, the police escalated the situation when the patrons refused to cooperate with a legal police investigation.

It may have started as a legal investigation but it didn't remain that way.

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No, but open carry was the initial cause for the incident. No open carry, no police...

Well if they didn't own a handgun, they wouldn't have carried one. If they weren't hungry, they wouldn't have been at the buffet. They were hassled for doing something completely legal. There is no sensible arguement for that.

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I don't see it as a civil rights issue at all. I see it as behavior not unlike a young chid whining to his parents, 'I don't hafta do it and you can't make me. So there!

Fortunately, there are many that see it differently. Btw, LEOs are NOT our parents and do not have that type of authority unless you freely give it to them.

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I find unreasonable searches and seizures to be offensive. It violates the rights enumerated in the Fourth Amendment. Providing identification is not submitting to a search.

So you would readily provide identification for any reason? Like shopping or using public transportation or using our interstates for travel. I guess you don't see the danger in condoning that type of behavior by our government officials and law enforcement.

kpw · May 14th, 2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfDefense

Yes, you can be asked for ID at any time. And, n this case, it was not unreasonable. I simply cannot fathom why anyone would not simply show a drivers license. This mythical 'right to privacy' is just a sham for those who want to be, simply stated, a petulant child.

No, the bottom line is that the patrons were obstructing a police investigation. They failed to comply with the simplest of courteous discourse and they were treated badly because of it. Do you think it is a good thing to obstruct police as long as it is legal for you to do so?

I have a feeling that everyone who thinks this is, or we are headed towards, a police state have never actually visited a place that is a police state.

Our rights are intact. No laws were changed. The only thing these people accomplished was getting their restaruant to post. Frankly, I don't blame them one bit after this nonsense.

SelfDefense, I'm sure you are probably a decent guy with a fair amount of common sense. There are more than a couple of us that probably relate to the feelings of the citizens involved in that incident and probably share more of their political ideology than yours. With that in mind, you might consider that calling them childish or petulant children may be considered at best, mildly offensive name calling and it doesn't help your arguement one bit. Although I do not open carry, I do share a similar mindset when it comes to 2A issues. At the very least, here in PA where I live. I may not agree with much of anything you have stated here but I hope I have refrained from describing your views in a derogatory and demeaning way....even if it wasn't always easy!

Ridgeline · May 14th, 2008, 08:24 PM

I don't know the law in PA but it would seem to me that if a private party can carry either open or concealed ... why would you want to promote the fact to anyone including a BG that you are? Maybe I am missing something here.

Kerbouchard · May 14th, 2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpw

SelfDefense, I'm sure you are probably a decent guy with a fair amount of common sense. There are more than a couple of us that probably relate to the feelings of the citizens involved in that incident and probably share more of their political ideology than yours. With that in mind, you might consider that calling them childish or petulant children may be considered at best, mildly offensive name calling and it doesn't help your argument one bit. Although I do not open carry, I do share a similar mindset when it comes to 2A issues. At the very least, here in PA where I live. I may not agree with much of anything you have stated here but I hope I have refrained from describing your views in a derogatory and demeaning way....even if it wasn't always easy!

We all have our moments. Perhaps SD woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...It happens. I'm sure he didn't mean anything offensive, and SD is a very strong proponent of individual rights...even if he sometimes gives the gov't (in my opinion) too much latitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridgeline

I don't know the law in PA but it would seem to me that if a private party can carry either open or concealed ... why would you want to promote the fact to anyone including a BG that you are? Maybe I am missing something here.

I believe you are missing the deterrence factor. It has been said that an 'armed society is a polite society.' A public display of a firearm absolutely necessitates this.

Without getting too much into OC vs CC, if a BG would choose to pass me by as a target because he could see my firearm, I would find that much to be preferred over the BG picking me as a target and me being forced to shoot him.

That's just me.

kpw · May 14th, 2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridgeline

I don't know the law in PA but it would seem to me that if a private party can carry either open or concealed ... why would you want to promote the fact to anyone including a BG that you are? Maybe I am missing something here.

No offense but you are missing the point. It's not about open carry. It's about being hassled and harrassed for doing something completely legal. Open carry is their choice and they know full well the pros and cons of it. Check out the pafoa.org forum and do a search. You'll find a ton of posts about OC there.

SelfDefense · May 14th, 2008, 11:16 PM

I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed. However, I do want to apologize for my comments about petulance and childishness. They were out of line and did not contribute to my argument. I also want to apologize for the even more outrageous comment about the patrons instigating the episode. I'm sorry that I offended the people who were there and the readers.

Hey, I had a bad day...

mcp1810 · May 15th, 2008, 12:59 AM

Self Defense,
I don't want to sound like I am piling on, I am just trying to understand your position better. The State's Attorney from Lakawana County stated that under Pennsylvania law a person has the right to openly carry a firearm without identification and has the right to refuse to produce identification when an officer demands it. So how was the detention of the gentleman, and the seizure of the handgun justified? There was no evidence he had violated any law, and there is nothing stated to indicate the weapon was stolen property or evidence in any crime. Do you feel that LEO's have the legal authority to detain anyone who does not fully cooperate? Do you believe that LEO's can seize any property on a whim and hold it until you can prove ownership?

Duisburg · May 15th, 2008, 01:51 AM

I thought that the Power in a democracy was invested into the public, not those who represent the public in office. It might sound crazy but since Thomas Jefferson said it: The tree of liberty needs to be replenished by the blood of patriots...in this case...in COURT!

May 14th, 2008, 08:24 PM	#95
Ridgeline Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 892	I don't know the law in PA but it would seem to me that if a private party can carry either open or concealed ... why would you want to promote the fact to anyone including a BG that you are? Maybe I am missing something here. __________________ "Eternity is Too Long to be Wrong" Texas CHL Instructor & Holder Life Member NRA Member TSRA

May 15th, 2008, 12:59 AM	#99
mcp1810 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,007	Self Defense, I don't want to sound like I am piling on, I am just trying to understand your position better. The State's Attorney from Lakawana County stated that under Pennsylvania law a person has the right to openly carry a firearm without identification and has the right to refuse to produce identification when an officer demands it. So how was the detention of the gentleman, and the seizure of the handgun justified? There was no evidence he had violated any law, and there is nothing stated to indicate the weapon was stolen property or evidence in any crime. Do you feel that LEO's have the legal authority to detain anyone who does not fully cooperate? Do you believe that LEO's can seize any property on a whim and hold it until you can prove ownership? __________________ "And what would you do with your brain if you had one?" - Dorothy

May 15th, 2008, 01:51 AM	#100
Duisburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Duisburg, Germany Posts: 509	I thought that the Power in a democracy was invested into the public, not those who represent the public in office. It might sound crazy but since Thomas Jefferson said it: The tree of liberty needs to be replenished by the blood of patriots...in this case...in COURT! __________________ "An Evil Exists that threatens every man, woman and child of the great nation. We must take steps to ensure domestic security and protect our homeland." -Adolph Hitler, when announcing the Gestappo to the people

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May 14th, 2008, 07:37 PM	#92
jcheinaman Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 145	Self Defense, Here is a good video for you to watch regarding willingly giving info to the police. It is done by a defense attorney and a detective. Don't Talk to the Police- Prof. James Duane Also the times tribune got the following comment from the Lackawana county DA. Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

May 14th, 2008, 11:16 PM	#98
SelfDefense Distinguished Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Tucson Posts: 1,363	I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed. However, I do want to apologize for my comments about petulance and childishness. They were out of line and did not contribute to my argument. I also want to apologize for the even more outrageous comment about the patrons instigating the episode. I'm sorry that I offended the people who were there and the readers. Hey, I had a bad day...