kpw

Hey everybody has bad days. Btw, I usually agree with you on other topics. We just have different positions on this one. Happens sometimes.

dgg9

You disagree with OC. You consider it imprudent. That's nice to know, but 100% non sequitur to the reality of the situation, which is that OC is 100% legal in PA, and in many areas, totally unremarkable.

It's always unwise to confuse your own personal prejudices with what's actually relevant.

Again, your personal opinions and preconceptions do not equal reality.

And all the problems and escalation are 100% attributable to the police mismanagement of the situation (in fact, the police made it into a "situation"), and police escalation.

Except it's not a valid hypothetical. Essentially you're implying that citizens should kowtow and be submissive to any invalid and outrageous police request because it "might be" exigent circumstances. No sale.

Not quite: it was when patrons refused to cooperate with an ILLEGAL police investigation. That's the difference you fail to grasp. The police on the scene didn't understand the law, or simply didn't care. Since there was no underlying crime at all, hence no RAS, they had no right at all -- none/nada/zilch -- to seize property, to demand ID, to harass patrons peacefully dining with their children, to cuff someone and fling him in the back of a squad car.

This was no investigation. This was a roust.

I agree -- it's a shame the police on the scene acted that way.

There was no legal basis to demand ID to begin with, hence everything that followed was unreasonable.

dgg9

Yes it was. There was no suspicion of a crime. There was no RAS. The underlying basis for everything that happened was police ignorance of the law. It was COMPLETELY unreasonable.

Who cares that the police "can" ask for anything, anytime? We have laws that limit police pushiness, and as Americans we have an obligation to hold that line.

Here, the line is trivially easy to see. There was no crime, and as soon as the police saw that, the investigation is over. Anything that happens after that is gratuitous and abusive. When the invalid ID request was turned down, there was no legal basis to cuff the patron and fling him in the back of a police car.

You seem to not factor in the fact that the police were ignorant of the law, and indeed broke the law, in your considerations. You also seem to be unable to distinguish between a legitimate investigation -- the police show up, and there's RAS of a crime -- and an illegitimate one -- police show up, there's manifestly no crime, but the police treat everyone like suspects anyway, up to and including mistreating patrons in a way you're not even allowed to treat suspects.

There was clearly no crime, and innocent patrons were treated in a way it is illegal to treat criminals.

And I simply cannot fathom how such submissiveness to any obnoxious authority figure, no matter how much in the wrong, has become so pervasive in this country.

Your stated mindset is the "abusive cop mentality" at its very worst.

Once again, you fail to grasp the crucial distinction: this was NOT a legitimate investigation, and from the person who was actually there, the police discourse was hardly courteous (did you even read his post?). There was no actual crime. There was no actual offense. There was no RAS of anything. The notion that there was a crime, hence that the patrons had to be treated like suspects, existed solely in the misinformed minds of the police on the scene, not in reality.

Again: this was a roust, not an investigation.

If the police are engaging in an illegal roust -- ABSOLUTELY.

Once again, there was nothing legal to "obstruct." This was harassment and bullying, NOT an investigation.

I have a feeling that anyone who can't see that allowing police to be obnoxious, ignorant of the law, and recommending submission to outrageous requests, has no idea what causes police states to come into being.

dgg9

That's a city mentality, and is not shared by everyone else in the US (luckily). Notice how you let slip your own emotional baggage with OC: it's "flaunting." No, it's not "flaunting." It's OC, nothing more. It's a gun, just something else a law abiding citizen might wear to a restaurant.

If some of the public is uncomfortable withy OC, then let them get comfortable with it, through peaceful exposure. Indeed, the restaurant patrons were doing exactly that. It was police misconduct which turned peaceful dining into the ugly incident it was.

No, it's the attitude of people like you -- ostensibly on our side -- who think guns are something to be ashamed of, and wearing one is "flaunting" or "provoking."

QKShooter

While on the subject of "provoking" - let's all try real hard not to do that here to other forum members.

Please make your arguments calmly as well as intelligently without anymore "People Like You."
comments.

Please keep in mind that DefensiveCarry is first and foremost a Concealed Carry forum primarily dedicated to legal concealed self-defense firearm carry.

We will entertain the discussion of open carry as a 2nd Amendment RKBA issue in this area of the forum...but, your personal opinions must not be directed toward other forum members in a disrespectful manner.

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another link regarding the council meeting in Dickson City

Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Bumper

I will add to what QKShooter said by reminding you that once this thread becomes primarily a debate between the virtues of OC versus CC, it will promptly disappear. Our experiences have been that the us vs them debate almost always degrades into flames. We are, as QK said, a concealed carry forum even though many of us also open carry at times....

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SelfDefense

I don't know whether the detention and handgun seizure was justified. We have only one side of the story. I think prior to the police showing up there was no justification for detention or gun confiscation. It should be noted that the two are not separate events. If someone is taken into custody their gun will be taken.

To both questions, no I don't.

I support open carry. The patrons had every right to be there and they should have been left alone.

I think open carry invites negative scrutiny and potential confrontation.

I don't think police should arbitrarily confront someone and ask for identification.

I think police should be given significant lattitude in performing their jobs. Someone clearly called the police with a complaint that was deemed sufficiently serious to dispatch officers. It is not credible to believe that police would arrive and not investigate the situation.

I try to live my life being respectful, courteous, helpful and polite to whomever I meet, especially to those in authority (boss, parents, LEO, flight attendants...) I expect no less from others. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I think that simply cooperating with a simple request by the police would have defused the situation immediately. At a much less cost than the road chosen. Avoiding confrontation, especially while carrying a firearm, is something that we promote on this forum and it is a very valuable lesson.

I think the police were wrong for not maintaining their composure. I think the patrons were wrong for causing the police to lose their composure.

I think the patrons were right in that they were aware of the law. I think the officer(s) involved require better training regarding this particular statute.

I think pursuing this in any way other than speaking or writing to the captain is making a mountain from a molehill. No one was demonstrably damaged. There is no evidence of ongoing abuse by police against legal gun owners.

I have used at least three colorful idioms so I am putting this issue to bed...

DPro.40

You are correct SelfDefense. No one was demonstrably damaged. It was our freedom that took the hit. From Hurricane Katrina to California, this incident and all the others we haven't heard about, is a direct hit to our god given right to protect our lives and the lives of our loved ones and property. Acceptance of these kind of behaviors and tactics only makes the next attack easier and then more common place. Acceptance of these behaviors only arms the criminals while we are turned into another statistic. I saw what happened in New Orleans. A great deal of the people left in New Orleans at that time were drug dealers and gang bangers fighting over turf. I was an adjuster there. Nagle had a field day. I suspect he wanted to be just like Mayor Daley or even Mayor Bloomberg. Thank God for the NRA for which I am proudly a member. Took two federal court hearings to get him to stop taking away legal guns from honest citizens. I too do not open carry but I know that's my choice and my choice is not necessarily what's right for everyone else. I respect your desire to be polite. I wish there were more people in the world who had a love and respect for each other, but that is not the reality. There are people out there that will kick your teeth in for a buck. This is not about manners. It's not about open carry. It's all about freedom and the resistance to maintain that freedom. Its way past manners. I'm sorry but I cant accept what happened as common place and a minor inconvenience. I respect your position. I can only hope you respect mine. Now if you'll excuse me. My soap box time has expired....

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DPro.40

sniper58

The patrons were in no way responsible for how the police acted, over reacted or lost control. The patrons, like everyone reading this, can only control how they (us) react to a situation. Period. That's like the school bully stating, "well, you made me do it," or the rapist saying, "look what she was wearing - she asked for it!" WRONG answers! To the contrary, we are each individually responsible for our own actions and reactions - nobody else.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out or if it gets buried with the rest of the government screw-ups. Perhaps an apology will appear in the classified section of the town's newspaper in Section D.

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