dgg9

But there's an easy way to know: what are the underlying laws? Those laws are crystal clear:

1. OC is perfectly legal in PA.
2. Police may not simply seize your possessions, then demand that you prove ownership to get them back. The police may no more take the gun from your belt and make you prove you own it, than they can take the shoes from your feet or the coat from your back.
3. Refusal to provide ID is not illegal.

Since it is inarguable that there was no underlying offense committed, then the police invented everything from whole cloth. You can't bootstrap a detention and a confiscation when there was no underlying crime AND the police were ignorant of the law. LE ignorance of the law undercuts and removes any assertion that the police were acting in good faith but the patrons were being obstructionist.

Since there was no underlying offense, there was no RAS, and everything that followed -- the bullying in front of one's children, the arrest, the cuffing, being flung in the back of the squad car, having one's gun stolen -- was 100% police malfeasance.

Actually, we don't. We have a local DA publically stating OC is perfectly legal. That alone completely undercuts everything the police on the scene did that day.

That's right. They should arrive and they should investigate. But the investigation stops as soon as it is clear no laws are being broken. Everything that happened after that was a roust, not an investigation.

dgg9

Some might argue that being treated like a criminal by police in front of one's children might be damaging. One guy got arrested, which is potential career damage for some jobs (any job where you polygraph and they ask if you've ever been arrested -- now it has to be explained away).

Apart from that, one patron still has his handgun stolen from him by the police, and now has to jump through hoops to get it back -- be it: paying for a lawyer, or having to lose work time to go to the PD.

Ship A'Hoy

SD I agree with your posts 100%.

The OC crowd is just too fanatical for my support.

In Pa it is illegal to record someone's voice without their consent.

__________________
If you don't stand behind our troops,
feel free to stand in front of them.

"You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."
Barrett Tillman

"Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts"
Sir Winston Churchill

ccw9mm

If carry is legal and acceptable, despite a few disliking that, in the absence of an overt criminal action it is unworthy of a call about a "man with a gun." That shouldn't be too difficult for police to appreciate, when responding to a person sitting in full compliance with the laws of his state, minding his own business with family or friends. Without legal basis, it's a roust.

Reality is somewhat different.

It's clear that there is HEAVY incentive to fabricate, given the goal of law enforcement and the restrictions placed on those who serve. Such criminal sliding on the procedures and evisceration of civil rights of citizens occurs in many places. Now and then, we read about it, of those caught red-handed with lies in the courtroom, for fabrication of evidence, for planting of weapons, for altering the scene to weigh more heavily against the suspect, or simply covering up. It's rare, but it's pretty darned real when it happens.

None of this is by any means intended to disparage the hundreds of thousands of honorable and dedicated law enforcement professionals who do a tough job excellently well, every day. I admire and respect those who can perform such a tough job well and honorably.

But that appreciation doesn't alter the fact that a small percentage engage in these sorts of things.

============

A close friend of my family was ratted out by a neighbor for simply cleaning his rifle at a table in his house. The ensuing "man with a gun" call resulted in his being gunned down in his own home, while cleaning his own gun, with the claim of his having aimed his gun at the police in a clear attempt to fire on them ... despite the fact that it was in a state of disassembly for cleaning. No investigation. No knock or call to inquire as to the reality of the situation. No warning.

He died of multiple shots right there in his chair, holding his disassembled rifle while cleaning it, while his wife was in the next room. How it was covered up, I am not certain, but the family received death threats for years, for attempting to pursue identification of the officers who made the call, failed to investigate, took the action, covered things up, and for the "higher-ups" who obviously helped in the cleansing. It is what it is.

He was a very nice and honorable man. I miss him.

This is just one example of what goes on, now and then, in reality.

__________________
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
Reports: CZ P01 pt1, pt2.
Thoughts: Justifiable self defense.

dgg9

It's not an OC issue at all. That's a red herring. It's a "police ignorant of the law and choosing to be heavy-handed" issue.

Basically you're saying that choosing to OC at all is ipso facto proof of fanaticism. Again, I caution against confusing one's own prejudices with reality. OC is legal; end of discussion.

Are you sure? It's illegal to record someone's voice without their knowledge, such as via wiretap. But if consent were required, it would be impossible for the media to report any stories at all.

Ship A'Hoy

It is illegal to record someone's voice without their permission in Pennsylvania.

It's technically a felony here in PA to record someone's voice without their consent.

__________________
If you don't stand behind our troops,
feel free to stand in front of them.

"You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."
Barrett Tillman

"Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts"
Sir Winston Churchill

Ship A'Hoy

No the discussion is not over.

OC is the issue, it was advertised as an OC dinner at PaFOA. They wanted attention and they got it.

It is my opinion that the OC crowd is fanatical to the point it tarnishes the image of responsible gun owners. I'm not contesting it's legality.

__________________
If you don't stand behind our troops,
feel free to stand in front of them.

"You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."
Barrett Tillman

"Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts"
Sir Winston Churchill

Kerbouchard

And people wondered why DC doesn't allow OC vs CC threads...

Good job Ship A'Hoy. It's always nice to have a reminder.

__________________
Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.

http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

Who is John Galt?

Ship A'Hoy

Your welcome!

__________________
If you don't stand behind our troops,
feel free to stand in front of them.

"You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."
Barrett Tillman

"Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts"
Sir Winston Churchill

morintp

You want to borrow my 10 foot pole?