TacticalCompact

Also sounds just like the men at Lexington when requested by the British regulars to turn over their arms.

If that was the case, the officer should have said so. If you are a suspect in a criminal investigation, that is one thing. That was clearly not the case or it would have been reported as such. Your comment here is hypothetical and fictitious; completely irrelevant.


So if the police arrive at your doorstep requesting to be allowed to search your property, you should say "yes sir, please do." Even when they have no warrant? And if you refuse, do they now have "reasonable suspicion?" Please, answer this question.

Sometimes that is what it takes. Statments must sometimes be made, and there is nothing wrong with publicly asserting that "The Man" is "not the boss of me!" What ever happened to "Of the People, For the People, By the People?" Seems you think it should be "Rule the People, Control the People, Harass the People."



Wow. I mean, just wow.


Right, and if the Colonial Extremists had just cooperated with the Red Coats, none of THIS:



would have happened.

Kerbouchard

kpw, TacticalCompact, that was very well said.

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SelfDefense

I think there is a major difference. As you point out, you are required by law to open carry. That is not the case in PA (unless I'm mistaken.) I don't know whether it was you or Lima that posted you (you are one, no?) reluctantly go to open carry and attempt to sit so that your gun is not readily visible. I may be wrong but it seemed to me that you go out of your way not to draw attention to yourself despite the fact you are required to open carry.

I certainly do not think it an appropriate topic to discuss here but many open carry folks are adamant concerning their right to open carry (and I do agree that it is a right) despite the imprudence in particular situations. We all know how many open carry folks have decided this was not the forum for them because they are so vocal (read: draw attention) concerning their views.

Frankly, I think it was not the guns but the failure to present identification that was the catalyst for the escalation.

SelfDefense

Completely different. The colonies did not elect the government. We do.

Why? LEO have no responsibility to explain to you why or what they are investigating.

The only 'report' we have was from one side. Not even a news story concerning the incident. Yes, it is hypothetical in order to get people to think beyond the narrow view they are taking into the argument. But it is not irrelevant at all. It demonstrates that there are events that some do not consider.

Asking for identification is not a search. No, I would not consent to a warrantless search of my property. However, if the search occurred I would not cause a scene and get myself arrested either.

Refusing a search is very different than refusing to identify yourself. LEOs are rightly provided wide ranging lattitude to accomplish their most difficult tasks.

It is childish. I would hope we are more mature than to simply flout authority. Yes, they are authority given to them by the people, for the people, and LEO are most certainly of the people. Respect is in order.

If not, then one should reap the consequences without the histrionics.

JD

Well, I have a nice bog response in progress, but I gotta' run.

I'll leave off with this:

While I am required by law to OC in a rest. that serves, I am not required by law to carry a gun.

If the same scenario happened to Lima and I while acting in accordance to state law, and I was cuffed and stuffed and had my firearm confiscated for doing nothing illegal, would you be upset?

We all have choices, I choose to carry a gun where ever possible, that means I OC in restaurants that serve. Could the same thing happen to me? Possibly, but I still carry.

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SelfDefense

That is exactly my point. However, the awareness they raised in the instance was completely negative. Contrast that with the open holster protest on college campuses throughout the nation. Positive and effective awareness and good publicity that opened the debate.

Police showed up because they were informed there was a potential problem. From what I read, the problems began when the patrons refused to identify themselves. Why do you think they did that?


It is not unlawful to ask for indentification. He stood his ground and received the consequences of acting out. Why did he not identify himself? Exactly what was he trying to accomplish? I submit he accomplished exactly what he wanted.

Identity papers? What papers. A driver's license? A gun permit? A passport? Do you have something to hide? It doesn't matter whether you are comfortable with it. In order to participate in our society you must conform to the established conduct. You cannot do as you please when you interact with others.

This incident is extraordinarily negative to gun owners. It is good that this situation is confined to gun forums where many can pat themselves on the back as they stand up for their 'rights.' The alternative is to show a bunch of fanatics, not complying with LEO, and threatening legal action because they were inconvenienced. I prefer to show gun owners in a positive light as most of us do in our every day lives, informing others and providing arguments for our cause.

The actions of everyone involved caused the problem, not just the LEO.

kpw

SelfDefense, if peacably standing your ground when you are doing nothing wrong is flaunting authority, then I have been guilty more than once and will probably be so in the future. Allowing your rights to be trampled because they seem trivial to you doesn't make them trivial to someone else. Some percieve these rights to be more important than you do. It is their ground and their rights that they percieve important enough to fight for. Important to them, not so for you. See the difference? Having authority doesn't always mean having the right and sometimes authority needs questioned or challenged to keep it honest.

TacticalCompact

I will not argue this further, as I agree with you on many points, and much of the argument is semantics. I don't, however, believe that LEO is always "of the people." I do not wish to engage in cop bashing, as I am aware that it is a dangerous, thankless job that many excellent people take on. However, not all are of this type and I don't think anyone can argue that.

I did not elect a government that allows illegal search and seizure. It is possible that had everyone happilly provided ID, this would have ended peacefully. Then again, that is only a guess and we don't really know. To be honest, it sounds like a bit of chest beating by the Police to me. If a group of law-abiding citizens wants to make it known that open-carry is legal, that is their right.

For the police to harrass them while eating in an attempt to discourage them from exercising their legal rights is deplorable. Should the harrassed citizens kneel down to the Police? Or should they take a stand and make an issue of it? That is purely their choice. I commend them, personally.

We can agree that you would not do the same, which is also your right.

SelfDefense

Of course, the same thing might happen. That is a risk we take to defend ourselves in a mostly gun unfriendly nation. (As an aside, we are among the most gun friendly nations on Earth!) Would I be upset? Not really. I would bail you out in a heartbeat and do everything to get the laws changed and the LEOs educated. I get upset that murderers, child molestors and rapists walk the streets because of lenient sentances or legal technicalities.

This is the small stuff. Concern? Sure. Uproar? Hardly.

My problem is encouraging scrutiny to make a point. There are other far more effective ways to get our point across. Opposing LEO is not a smart thing to do. People, LEO are on our side!

I look forward to reading your blog.

SelfDefense

I take issue with the word trampled. It is very emotional and does not do justice to the incident. At the end of the evening everyone went home and their guns returned (or soon will be.) I do understand their position. I do not agree with their tactics.

I disagree that they were standing their ground peacably. If that were true they would have provided identification when asked. My opinion would be quite different if they were in the least bit cooperative.