dgg9

So an illegal arrest is a consequence you support?

This, in one sentence, is how rights are lost. When weak people submit to illegal requests because "only the guilty have something to hide."

The LAW is what establishes conduct, not the baseless whims of some police officer. Your last sentence applies to the LEOs on the scene, not the OC citizen.

packinnova

Heh...there's a few John Galts out here...

__________________
-The Mist (2007)

jahwarrior72

i happen to be one of the men who was pulled out of the restaurant that night, scaring the bejesus out of my g/f and our kids. i'll start by saying that i'm not in the habit of carrying openly often; i'm still a little uncomfortable with it, but i shouldn't be made to feel like a criminal if i choose to carry that way.

i'm not a cop basher. i have a deep respect for any person who puts on a uniform, and willingly steps into harms way for the public. my problem is with overzealous, ignorant LEOs who ignore the law they are supposed to uphold and enforce, while making up their own laws as they go along. this is what Dickson City police did. they demanded one man to produce a paper ID, which is not required by state law (Commonwealth v. Hawkins). they confiscated his BUG, because it wasn't "registered" in PA (there is no state registry). they threatened to arrest his wife who was recording the incident on digital video; she was told that her recording violated "the wire tapping act, which is a federal offense," and that her camera would be confiscated and that she'd join her husband in jail while her kids were taken away. they broke law after law after law that night. they scared the heck out of a lot of children, humiliated alot of parents, and scraed off any witnesses who otherwise might have been thinking of legally obtaining a firearm. they basically ruined everyone's night.

police from other local PDs arrived as backup, but when they arrived, were irritated for having their time wasted on such nonsense. one officer i talked to asked why we were doing this. i told him that this wasn't some sort of protest, or to get publicity, which it wasn't. this was simply a get together of local gun owners. as a group, we hold these gatherings throughout PA; this was the first one i've been able to make it to. from what others have told me, this was the very first time they were ever hassled by LEOs. we talked for a minute or two more, then he said "good for you guys. i hope everything works out for you."

some might say that the problems started because of people who refused to show ID. others might say the simple act of OC started the problem. i respectfully disagree. one of the LEOs in question asked the restaurant manager what the problem was. she herself replied "there was no problem until you guys showed up." what happened that night was harrassment, plain and simple. they did not quietly pull any of us to the side and ask us to step outside, they were not professional, nor were they courteous. they walked in, looked around, pointed at me and others, and demanded we step outside to have a discussion. when i myself asked what was the problem, one officer said "i'm not discussing anything in here. you, and anyone else here who's armed needs to get outside right now, so we can straighten all this out. let's go." he said it in a tone and volume that managed to start my daughters crying out of fear. i've always taught my kids that the police are the good guys, and that they're here to help you, and that you should never be afraid of them. thanks to two jerks, ahem, officers, my kids are faced with a problem: either police are good, and daddy did something bad, or daddy didn't do anything bad, and the police are bad. i found myself having to defend the officers to my kids by saying "well, honey, they're not bad, they just didn't know they law too good," to which my 5 year old replied, "but don't police peoples supposed to know the laws?"

can't argue with that, can i?

__________________
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Arisin Wind

Group of Gun Owners Protest Treatment


Group of Gun Owners Protest Treatment

Posted: May 14, 2008 06:16 AM

Last Updated: May 14, 2008 10:09 AM
A group of gun owners attended the Dickson City council meeting Tuesday.
A group of gun owners attended the Dickson City council meeting Tuesday.

By Bianca Barr

A group of gun owners aimed for justice Tuesday in Lackawanna County. They want two Dickson City police officers disciplined for the way they handled a situation involving guns.

A group stood outside the Dickson City Municipal Building, guns visibly on their hips, talking to people before the council meeting began.

Inside, there was more discussion about the second amendment and whether two part-time Dickson City police officers should be reprimanded for their actions last week at Old Country Buffet, a restaurant in the borough.

Police responded to a 911 call that there were people in the restaurant with guns. Officers arrived to find a group of people having dinner.

Officers detained one man for a short time and confiscated his gun because they said he wasn't cooperating.

Alex Arnau of Scranton was part of the group and believes the police were in the wrong.

"The community doesn't have a right to exclude people if they are contributing to the community like we are spending our money in their community."

But Joanne Clancy of Dickson City said she doesn't want to see a person carrying a sidearm in a public place like that.

"A part of feeling safe is a community standard where firearms being worn like the wild west isn't accepted."

Dickson City Police Chief William Stadnitski said no charges will be filed and the man whose gun was taken can get it back anytime but he also insisted his officers did the right thing.

"We did what we had to do for the community. We verified their ownership, verification and everything was fine. And most of the individuals were very cooperative," Stadnitski added.

Since the incident, the Old Country Buffet now has a sign posted on the front door, forbidding anyone carrying a weapon to enter.

"If it happens again, if we're uncertain of something, we will check it out. We feel we are obligated to do that for our community," added Chief Stadnitski.

Arisin Wind

The Times-Tribune - Gun owners protest police action with video

Gun owners protest police action with video
BY CHARLES SCHILLINGER
STAFF WRITER
05/14/2008
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Ken Merkel, of Kempton, keeps a Glock 27 handgun on his belt as gun- rights advocates gather for dinner at Charlie Brown’s in Dickson City before attending a Dickson City Borough Council meeting Tuesday night. PAMELA SUCHY / STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER


Ken Merkel, of Kempton, keeps a Glock 27 handgun on his belt as gun- rights advocates gather for dinner at Charlie Brown’s in Dickson City before attending a Dickson City Borough Council meeting Tuesday night. PAMELA SUCHY / STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER
DICKSON CITY — A Friday evening police incident spilled over into a Borough Council meeting Tuesday, with gun-rights advocates alleging harassment by two police officers.

The regular monthly meeting erupted into a full-blown debate on the Second Amendment, with more than 20 Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association members — many of whom were openly armed — arguing their right to carry a weapon in public.

Police have yet to release a report of the incident in which a group of customers at Old Country Buffet were questioned about openly carrying handguns in public. At least one of those customers, Rich Banks, of Luzerne County, was detained for refusing to cooperate with police in regard to his concealed .38-caliber handgun, Police Chief William Stadnitski said. Mr. Banks’ weapon remains confiscated, but the chief said he can pick it up at any time.

Pennsylvanians are required to carry a permit for a concealed weapon; however, there are exemptions, such as in the case of Mr. Banks, who Dickson City police later found out had a federal gun-dealer license.

“We don’t feel there was any misconduct. We did what we had to for the safety of the customers,” Chief Stadnitski said of his part-time officers, Karen Gallagher and Anthony Mariano, who responded to the restaurant after 911 received complaints. The chief said no charges will be filed.

But some, like Andrew Koch, disagreed. Mr. Koch drove more than five hours from Pittsburgh to speak out for Mr. Banks and the other gun owners who were “embarrassed, oppressed, harassed and violated” by the police.

“These officers need to be disciplined, and criminal charges need to be brought against them,” Mr. Koch said.

Firearm association members turned out from all over the state at Tuesday’s meeting after postings on Internet sites, such as OpenCarry.org. The co-founder of that site, Lancaster resident Mike Stollenwerk, drove from Washington, D.C., to protest the police conduct.

“Normally when hiccups like this happen, they don’t go as far as gun seizure. ... Usually it gets cleared up much quicker,” he said.

Bill Grumbine, of Kutztown, carrying a Springfield XD-45 handgun, said he brought his 15-year-old daughter, Emily, for a “real-life civics lesson.”

“The last thing we want to do is use our guns, just like the last thing you want to do is use the air bag in your car,” he said. “But we believe in being prepared, and we believe in exercising our rights.”

Several council members and Mayor Anthony Zaleski defended the police officers.

“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”

Contact the writer: cschillinger@timesshamrock.com

Arisin Wind

“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.

I would think once the officers saw people sitting at the tables eating and no one in a panic they could tell there wasn't a mass shooting going on.

dgg9

Indeed. That quote is absurd.

In reality, when the officers arrived and saw no "disturbance," and talked to the manager, they should simply have left. The entire escalation happend when the police became heavy-handed and bullying.

There was no reason at all why anyone should have been asked for ID or the serial numbers of their guns checked.

packinnova

Get that video out if you can. Just make sure that video gets into the court process. Make copies. Lots of copies and don't keep them all in one place.

__________________
-The Mist (2007)

SelfDefense

The difference is that open carry invites scrutiny. Concealed carry means no one knows you have a gun. The patrons chose the most imprudent method available. And they did it intentionally. It is absolutely legal. That does not make it wise. It is legal for me to provide my bank account number over the internet. Not a smart thing to do.

It was peaceful until the police began their investigation.

I previously posted the reason I suggested that hypothetical. It forces people to consider another view. Many simply discount any information other than their view. The patrons could not know why or what the police were investigating. Or, perhaps they called in the report themselves...

Apparently, the police escalated the situation when the patrons refused to cooperate with a legal police investigation.

No, but open carry was the initial cause for the incident. No open carry, no police...

I don't see it as a civil rights issue at all. I see it as behavior not unlike a young chid whining to his parents, 'I don't hafta do it and you can't make me. So there!'

{Quote]Not meaning to attack in any way but I have a question for you SelfDefence. Do you find illegal search, seizure and arrest acceptable if it has no direct effect on you ?[/quote]

I find unreasonable searches and seizures to be offensive. It violates the rights enumerated in the Fourth Amendment. Providing identification is not submitting to a search.

SelfDefense

Yes, you can be asked for ID at any time. And, n this case, it was not unreasonable. I simply cannot fathom why anyone would not simply show a drivers license. This mythical 'right to privacy' is just a sham for those who want to be, simply stated, a petulant child.

No, the bottom line is that the patrons were obstructing a police investigation. They failed to comply with the simplest of courteous discourse and they were treated badly because of it. Do you think it is a good thing to obstruct police as long as it is legal for you to do so?

I have a feeling that everyone who thinks this is, or we are headed towards, a police state have never actually visited a place that is a police state.

Our rights are intact. No laws were changed. The only thing these people accomplished was getting their restaruant to post. Frankly, I don't blame them one bit after this nonsense.