Fighting the Perception Battle

Euclidean · December 14th, 2005, 05:27 PM

Little bit of a rant here so cut me some slack.

I am so sick and tired of hearing about how good the gun laws are in Texas. We have got some screwed up gun laws in this state, and some of the the better ones we do have are not enforced.

Now I know if you're from Maryland or PRM or PRK or somewhere like that, you're not exactly sympathetic, but one reason I pay my Texas State Rifle Association dues is because I know Texas is one of the Big 3 along with Kali and New York, and if we can show that the big old state of Texas gets along better than those other two with more guns out there, it could help some of you peasants out (don't take that personally, but if your right to bear arms is that heavily restricted you are in fact a peasant).

But Texas is years behind Florida, Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona, and I dare say even Wyoming and Montana. Our CCW permit system is expensive, highly restricted, and has many arbitrary stipulations like you can't carry within 1000 feet of the sight of a scheduled execution. It is shall issue, but it has so many provisos it's designed to deter people from applying. Just getting the paperwork filled out takes a couple hours. You can get a driver's license in about 15 minutes, and it'll be mailed to you within a month.

Did you know we have exactly 2 people that do the CCW permit approvals?

There's a lot of other things in Texas that ain't right. We don't obey our own laws when it's in the favor of the armed citizen. For example, we cited on this very forum not long ago that anyone practicing car carry without a permit in Houston will be charged, even though that is now clearly legal. It was actually never illegal, but the law was poorly worded. The state law clearly says no entity can restrict the presence of CCW guns in parking lots, sidewalks, etc, yet people can be fired for having a gun locked in a safe in their employer's parking lot. We tried to fix this, but it got shot down.

A lot of local jurisdictions do things that are outrageous. Try operating a shooting range in Travis County. I know some people that can tell you all about that. I understand it was been stopped, but until just months ago there was a local PD here that was confiscating the gun of anyone honest enough to comply with the state law and tell the officer they had a CCW permit.

The one that gets me the worst is that as a permit holder, I have to immediately inform the officer of my armed status if I am pulled over in my car. However, a non permit with a gun in the car is under no such restriction.

Open carry is strictly illegal. You can't manufacture your own guns either.

Our reciprocity list is way too small, despite having a very restritive permit system. The Florida permit costs the same and is better and easier to apply for.

I'll quit now, but the reason I do this is because I am just sick and tired of hearing from everyone, native fellow Texans included, that our gun laws are so good. They're not.

That creates a real problem. People ASSUME it's legal to do this that and the other. They think we CCW Vermont/Alaska style. They think we can open carry any guns we want to just because we're Texans.

It makes the fight that much harder. Because of the perceptions at work, not enough get motivated to fight for change and reform. People in the slave states applaud our laws because in comparison I admit they're much better, but our laws should not be applauded they should be criticized and shown for the inconsistent illogical and oppressive mess they are.

PA, FL, VT, AK, AZ all in particular have provisions and laws and reforms passed that Texas needs badly. We don't even have a stand your ground law. Much of our legal rulings for self defense comes from court cases, not written legislation. That's an arbitrary passing of legislation from the bench in all honesty.

My whole point is, keep in mind just because someone is better off than you are at the moment, that doesn't mean they're still not in a lurch, or that their system is the way to go. Being complacent, being ignorant, or praising a system that's still anti-2A may win the battle but it is not going to win the war.

P95Carry · December 14th, 2005, 06:01 PM

I hear ya Euc.

In fact on occasions when I have heard the mention of ''such a good gun state'' - I have thought more than once that overall PA has it way better. My CCW is issued by local county sheriff's office - it takes about 20-30 minutes!!!! I can't imagine just 2 people dealing with a whole state! Also there are only two or three ''no-no's'' re where I cannot carry legally.

This is not to berate the great Lone Star State - just a reflection on the many aspects of carry there which I see as overly restrictive - if not sometimes punitive. Some other states too - strike me as ''giving with one hand and taking away with the other'' - in as much as, they have a shall issue but then when you look underneath you find so many exclusions that it almost makes a joke of the whole thing.

I sure would like to see some of your (to me) crazy restrictions dealt with - same as some in other states. Oh for uniformity and sense.

Euclidean · December 14th, 2005, 07:18 PM

We're also the only state in the Union where it's not specified how many or which one you can carry, but we have this screwball provision in the law about qualifications for the CCW permit that if you qualify with a revolver, you can only carry a revolver.

So would a derringer be out of the question then?

I may be wrong on that though, I think the law actually says "Handguns which are not semiautomatic."

Basically Chris if you were to bring your BFR to a Texas CCW qualifier and qualify with it by demonstrating you could put 5 rounds on target in 2 seconds at 15 yards, you wouldn't be judged competent enough to carry your own Sigs.

QKShooter · December 14th, 2005, 10:04 PM

Pa...My wife actually timed my renewal at less than 10 mins & that included the new photo & my nifty new Drivers License Like L.T.C. ~ Before that...our LTC was a Xeroxed 3"X5" sheet of plain with paper with the photo stapled to it.

Pa. is Shall Issue.

I live in Allegheny County.

We can carry whatever firearm/firearms are registered to us.

Ours is actually a License To Carry A Firearm Concealed
Concealed means CONCEALED.

Required are two forms of I.D. - Original Birth Certificate - Drivers License - Voters registration - Pa State Photo I.D. card.

Addresses & Phone #s of two references that are not family members.

We must have our original L.T.C. (on our person) whenever we carry.

My fee was $17.00 - Cash.

We have no required classes ~ no written or oral exam & no range testing required.

We are not required to notify if vehicle stopped.

There are no "in vehicle" special carry requirements.

Restricted are - Federal Buildings - Courthouse - Schools - Airport -

I have never seen a business posted with a No Firearms Allowed sign.

So...actually things are pretty good here.

Euclidean · December 14th, 2005, 10:23 PM

I had to get like 5 documents notorized to even apply.

QKShooter · December 14th, 2005, 10:36 PM

I learned a lot here about specific TX law & requirements. Thanks Euc.
I was actually under the impression that things were much better/easier there in Lone Star State.

LenS · December 14th, 2005, 11:19 PM

I'm aghast at what some states restrict legal gun owners from CCW!

MA (PRM) is "may issue" but once you get one (LTC-A) the actual laws don't restrict CCW from anywhere but schools/colleges.

Friends in AZ have more hassles with restrictions on public buildings (public libraries, town halls, etc.), places that sell liquor, ad nauseum.

FL doesn't allow you to possess a firearm in a police station and a whole bunch of other restrictions.

We should be issued CCW or not and those that get issued should be trusted to CCW ANYWHERE!! Trusting someone in some buildings but not others, is absolutely ludicrous.

P95Carry · December 14th, 2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euc

We're also the only state in the Union where it's not specified how many or which one you can carry

As QK points out, PA does not limit type of gun, or number on person etc.

QK - you mentioned -

Quote:

Addresses & Phone #s of two references that are not family members.

That must be a county thing - neither I or wife had to do that and also IIRC D/L was all we needed for ID. I ain't complaining

Euclidean · December 14th, 2005, 11:24 PM

What I meant to specify Chris was that we have a completely contradictory regulation that while you can carry as many as you want and whatever you want, AT THE SAME TIME the type of gun can be heavily restricted depending on what gun you qualified with. I don't know another state like this.

Some states are far more strict I know, but this stipulation in our law makes no sense.

P95Carry · December 14th, 2005, 11:32 PM

Got ya Euc - yep, I see what you mean. Seems absurd what you describe - other than just another obstruction to the right to carry.

Quote:

Trusting someone in some buildings but not others, is absolutely ludicrous.

Len, agreed - what that says to me (cynic hat) is that in fact we are not really trusted at all - just ''allowed'' to do so much, and so much only. If indeed it was true trust we had, to excercize our RIGHT - then nowhere would be off limits!!

Folks are either responsible, or they ain't - it is not going to depend on where they happen to be.

December 14th, 2005, 05:27 PM	#1
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	Fighting the Perception Battle Little bit of a rant here so cut me some slack. I am so sick and tired of hearing about how good the gun laws are in Texas. We have got some screwed up gun laws in this state, and some of the the better ones we do have are not enforced. Now I know if you're from Maryland or PRM or PRK or somewhere like that, you're not exactly sympathetic, but one reason I pay my Texas State Rifle Association dues is because I know Texas is one of the Big 3 along with Kali and New York, and if we can show that the big old state of Texas gets along better than those other two with more guns out there, it could help some of you peasants out (don't take that personally, but if your right to bear arms is that heavily restricted you are in fact a peasant). But Texas is years behind Florida, Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona, and I dare say even Wyoming and Montana. Our CCW permit system is expensive, highly restricted, and has many arbitrary stipulations like you can't carry within 1000 feet of the sight of a scheduled execution. It is shall issue, but it has so many provisos it's designed to deter people from applying. Just getting the paperwork filled out takes a couple hours. You can get a driver's license in about 15 minutes, and it'll be mailed to you within a month. Did you know we have exactly 2 people that do the CCW permit approvals? There's a lot of other things in Texas that ain't right. We don't obey our own laws when it's in the favor of the armed citizen. For example, we cited on this very forum not long ago that anyone practicing car carry without a permit in Houston will be charged, even though that is now clearly legal. It was actually never illegal, but the law was poorly worded. The state law clearly says no entity can restrict the presence of CCW guns in parking lots, sidewalks, etc, yet people can be fired for having a gun locked in a safe in their employer's parking lot. We tried to fix this, but it got shot down. A lot of local jurisdictions do things that are outrageous. Try operating a shooting range in Travis County. I know some people that can tell you all about that. I understand it was been stopped, but until just months ago there was a local PD here that was confiscating the gun of anyone honest enough to comply with the state law and tell the officer they had a CCW permit. The one that gets me the worst is that as a permit holder, I have to immediately inform the officer of my armed status if I am pulled over in my car. However, a non permit with a gun in the car is under no such restriction. Open carry is strictly illegal. You can't manufacture your own guns either. Our reciprocity list is way too small, despite having a very restritive permit system. The Florida permit costs the same and is better and easier to apply for. I'll quit now, but the reason I do this is because I am just sick and tired of hearing from everyone, native fellow Texans included, that our gun laws are so good. They're not. That creates a real problem. People ASSUME it's legal to do this that and the other. They think we CCW Vermont/Alaska style. They think we can open carry any guns we want to just because we're Texans. It makes the fight that much harder. Because of the perceptions at work, not enough get motivated to fight for change and reform. People in the slave states applaud our laws because in comparison I admit they're much better, but our laws should not be applauded they should be criticized and shown for the inconsistent illogical and oppressive mess they are. PA, FL, VT, AK, AZ all in particular have provisions and laws and reforms passed that Texas needs badly. We don't even have a stand your ground law. Much of our legal rulings for self defense comes from court cases, not written legislation. That's an arbitrary passing of legislation from the bench in all honesty. My whole point is, keep in mind just because someone is better off than you are at the moment, that doesn't mean they're still not in a lurch, or that their system is the way to go. Being complacent, being ignorant, or praising a system that's still anti-2A may win the battle but it is not going to win the war. __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

December 14th, 2005, 06:01 PM	#2
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,366	I hear ya Euc. In fact on occasions when I have heard the mention of ''such a good gun state'' - I have thought more than once that overall PA has it way better. My CCW is issued by local county sheriff's office - it takes about 20-30 minutes!!!! I can't imagine just 2 people dealing with a whole state! Also there are only two or three ''no-no's'' re where I cannot carry legally. This is not to berate the great Lone Star State - just a reflection on the many aspects of carry there which I see as overly restrictive - if not sometimes punitive. Some other states too - strike me as ''giving with one hand and taking away with the other'' - in as much as, they have a shall issue but then when you look underneath you find so many exclusions that it almost makes a joke of the whole thing. I sure would like to see some of your (to me) crazy restrictions dealt with - same as some in other states. Oh for uniformity and sense. __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

December 14th, 2005, 07:18 PM	#3
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	We're also the only state in the Union where it's not specified how many or which one you can carry, but we have this screwball provision in the law about qualifications for the CCW permit that if you qualify with a revolver, you can only carry a revolver. So would a derringer be out of the question then? I may be wrong on that though, I think the law actually says "Handguns which are not semiautomatic." Basically Chris if you were to bring your BFR to a Texas CCW qualifier and qualify with it by demonstrating you could put 5 rounds on target in 2 seconds at 15 yards, you wouldn't be judged competent enough to carry your own Sigs. __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

December 14th, 2005, 10:04 PM	#4
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 19,788	Great Thread Euc. Pa...My wife actually timed my renewal at less than 10 mins & that included the new photo & my nifty new Drivers License Like L.T.C. ~ Before that...our LTC was a Xeroxed 3"X5" sheet of plain with paper with the photo stapled to it. Pa. is Shall Issue. I live in Allegheny County. We can carry whatever firearm/firearms are registered to us. Ours is actually a License To Carry A Firearm Concealed Concealed means CONCEALED. Required are two forms of I.D. - Original Birth Certificate - Drivers License - Voters registration - Pa State Photo I.D. card. Addresses & Phone #s of two references that are not family members. We must have our original L.T.C. (on our person) whenever we carry. My fee was $17.00 - Cash. We have no required classes ~ no written or oral exam & no range testing required. We are not required to notify if vehicle stopped. There are no "in vehicle" special carry requirements. Restricted are - Federal Buildings - Courthouse - Schools - Airport - I have never seen a business posted with a No Firearms Allowed sign. So...actually things are pretty good here. __________________ Support Our Military. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

December 14th, 2005, 10:23 PM	#5
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	I had to get like 5 documents notorized to even apply. __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

December 14th, 2005, 10:36 PM	#6
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 19,788	Texas I learned a lot here about specific TX law & requirements. Thanks Euc. I was actually under the impression that things were much better/easier there in Lone Star State. __________________ Support Our Military. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

December 14th, 2005, 11:19 PM	#7
LenS Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,334	I'm aghast at what some states restrict legal gun owners from CCW! MA (PRM) is "may issue" but once you get one (LTC-A) the actual laws don't restrict CCW from anywhere but schools/colleges. Friends in AZ have more hassles with restrictions on public buildings (public libraries, town halls, etc.), places that sell liquor, ad nauseum. FL doesn't allow you to possess a firearm in a police station and a whole bunch of other restrictions. We should be issued CCW or not and those that get issued should be trusted to CCW ANYWHERE!! Trusting someone in some buildings but not others, is absolutely ludicrous.

December 14th, 2005, 11:24 PM	#9
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	What I meant to specify Chris was that we have a completely contradictory regulation that while you can carry as many as you want and whatever you want, AT THE SAME TIME the type of gun can be heavily restricted depending on what gun you qualified with. I don't know another state like this. Some states are far more strict I know, but this stipulation in our law makes no sense. __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

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