If a gun shop IS the source of crime - Page 2

Bumper · May 23rd, 2006, 12:41 AM

I'm sort of with Matt and others on this. If they were legal sales, then what should go away is the bar serving as a hangout for the drug dealers. The drug dealers are the problem, not the shop. And now that they have been busted maybe the problem is solved. I'd say that if he is required to move his shop, the city/county/state requiring it should pay for his move....

Miggy · May 23rd, 2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Gun control activists say that in a single year, the shop that store sold 178 guns that were later used in crimes

See how well articulated the statement was written. It doesn't tell what kind of crimes or if they were bought and inmediately used in a commission of a crime or if they were stolen and then used. It does not tell you what percentage of the total volume of guns sold during the year this number represent or if it is higher or lower than other stores.

They tried to pull the same stunt here last year down here in South Florida. Incidentally, the name of the gun shop was Lou's too. A two day "in depth" reporting by the Miami Herald pointed the finger at this shop for selling the biggest amount of guns used in crimes. They sort of forgot, did not know or ignored that Lou's is probably the biggest sellers of firearms in SoFla and that the number of firearms sold from that store and used in crimes was a miniscule & ridicule figure. The funniest part was that some "concerned" advocates of gun control tried to hint that the store might be involved in some sort of illegal activities: shadowy figures, colombian drug dealers and gangsta types going to Lou's for their combat wares... which it is hilarious if you have actually tried to park nearby the damn store. Not only it has insuficient spaces but 90% of the spaces are taken by patrol cars from every darn jurisdiction in SoFla.

You see, Lou's is the premier Gun Store for LEO's down here. Also a cop hangout. Not the type of place your average criminal goes to do a straw purchase or get an AK for tonite's Drive-By.

MattLarson · May 23rd, 2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie Young

I think the shop needs to move out of that area. Pawn shops don't bring in the best of society in the first place. Putting a gun shop in a pawn shop is probable the root of the problem.

So it is OK to destroy someone's livelihood (aka the business in question) even though they have complied with all applicable laws just to suit someone's whim?

If the shop were violating the law, and making unlawful sales, I would be right there with you saying it must go.

But the articles have plainly said that the shop's sales were legal.

Matt

mkeBob · May 23rd, 2006, 10:18 AM

We had the same situation here in Wisconsin. Between 1996 and 1998 the largest gun store in our state was linked to the guns used to commit 40 homicides. However, all paperwork was done according to requirements and the store is still the states largest and best. If the stores are selling legally don't blame them, go after the people reselling the guns. In most of these of shootings it's the bad guys shooting each other anyway.

Betty · May 23rd, 2006, 01:03 PM

Many years ago, a man chased down and hacked up his nephew with a chainsaw, and I was hoping that chainsaw wasn't bought at my dad's store, because I was afraid the family would include in their lawsuit the store the chainsaw was bought from. It wouldn't be the first time my dad was sued for the end-user's misuse; many years before that, a family misused a cleaning agent, set their house on fire, resulting in their baby being killed. Dad's insurance co. settled out of court, and to this day, I'll bet that family still blames my dad.

If the guns were purchased legally, the store should not be held responsible.
If they were sold illegally, they should be held responsible.
If they were sold legally but the owner had clear knowledge the buyer was going to commit a crime with it, or knew it was a strawman purchase, they should be responsible.

Jamie Young · May 23rd, 2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

If the guns were purchased legally, the store should not be held responsible.
If they were sold illegally, they should be held responsible.
If they were sold legally but the owner had clear knowledge the buyer was going to commit a crime with it, or knew it was a strawman purchase, they should be responsible.

I agree with that, and 95% of what the rest of you are stating.

I'm still trying to get all the facts on the 3 gun shops that are getting flak from the straw buying.

Keep in mind, somebody like P95Carry is 3hrs West of me, and he may be affected by a new AWB and a 1 gun a month legislation because of what is going on 5 minutes from my home. These 3 gun shops are being used by criminals to acquire firearms legally, and their location to the criminal element IMHO isn't helping.

I still lean toward moving the shop out of the neighborhood, but I'm still researching all the facts. If this shop is shutdown, I'm in agreement that the move should be funded by the City of Philadelphia or the Township.

LibertyGal · May 26th, 2006, 02:08 AM

The NBC story says they made "dozens of arrests in a big drug bust all over Upper Darby." A police officer stated that the nearby bar should be shut down and turned into a "parking lot." It sounds to me like this is a rough neighborhood with a bunch of scofflaws and criminals. How is that the pawn shop's fault? If the pawn shop closed up tomorrow, would that really improve the neighborhood if the bars and drug dealers are still around?

Those who want to obtain guns will go elsewhere to obtain them, and those who want to obtain guns for protection against the roughnecks would be forced to find someplace else as well.

If the pawn shop is selling guns illegally, or knowingly selling to straw purchasers, then deal with that problem. But to shut down or move the pawn shop just because some people are using legally obtained guns for criminal purposes is illogical.

Furthermore, if the pawn shop is the "crime magnet" that you propose, then moving it to a "better" neighborhood will just bring that neighborhood down, won't it?

Right now in PA, as a resident who meets all eligibility requirements, I can legally purchase a firearm from whatever gun shop I choose, even if it is in a seedy neighborhood. The seedy gun shop still has to go through the same background check as the one in a good neighborhood. And if I come up clean, they have no reason to deny my purchase. They should not be held liable for what I decide to do with the purchase.

LibertyGal

Jamie Young · August 1st, 2006, 03:32 PM

Breaking news....http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/15169013.htm

This really is a tough call.

P95Carry · August 1st, 2006, 05:21 PM

Read about that in local paper today.

Superficially at least it does seem Lou's stretched the envelope to much and too often - which is not good for us regarding PR in the gun community. These days dealers need to be squeaky clean.

I was interested to see the PA dealer figure as being over 2800.

May 23rd, 2006, 12:41 AM	#11
Bumper Administrator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 14,042	I'm sort of with Matt and others on this. If they were legal sales, then what should go away is the bar serving as a hangout for the drug dealers. The drug dealers are the problem, not the shop. And now that they have been busted maybe the problem is solved. I'd say that if he is required to move his shop, the city/county/state requiring it should pay for his move.... __________________ Bumper Administrator DefensiveCarry.com Forum Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

May 23rd, 2006, 10:18 AM	#14
mkeBob Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Posts: 291	We had the same situation here in Wisconsin. Between 1996 and 1998 the largest gun store in our state was linked to the guns used to commit 40 homicides. However, all paperwork was done according to requirements and the store is still the states largest and best. If the stores are selling legally don't blame them, go after the people reselling the guns. In most of these of shootings it's the bad guys shooting each other anyway. __________________ The power of the future is in its ability to inspire the present.

May 23rd, 2006, 01:03 PM	#15
Betty Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Nashville Posts: 2,738	Many years ago, a man chased down and hacked up his nephew with a chainsaw, and I was hoping that chainsaw wasn't bought at my dad's store, because I was afraid the family would include in their lawsuit the store the chainsaw was bought from. It wouldn't be the first time my dad was sued for the end-user's misuse; many years before that, a family misused a cleaning agent, set their house on fire, resulting in their baby being killed. Dad's insurance co. settled out of court, and to this day, I'll bet that family still blames my dad. If the guns were purchased legally, the store should not be held responsible. If they were sold illegally, they should be held responsible. If they were sold legally but the owner had clear knowledge the buyer was going to commit a crime with it, or knew it was a strawman purchase, they should be responsible. __________________ "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa Broodings, Blunders and Broadsides: The Betty Blog (Friends only - Email me through there to let me know who you are first!)

May 26th, 2006, 02:08 AM	#17
LibertyGal Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 127	The NBC story says they made "dozens of arrests in a big drug bust all over Upper Darby." A police officer stated that the nearby bar should be shut down and turned into a "parking lot." It sounds to me like this is a rough neighborhood with a bunch of scofflaws and criminals. How is that the pawn shop's fault? If the pawn shop closed up tomorrow, would that really improve the neighborhood if the bars and drug dealers are still around? Those who want to obtain guns will go elsewhere to obtain them, and those who want to obtain guns for protection against the roughnecks would be forced to find someplace else as well. If the pawn shop is selling guns illegally, or knowingly selling to straw purchasers, then deal with that problem. But to shut down or move the pawn shop just because some people are using legally obtained guns for criminal purposes is illogical. Furthermore, if the pawn shop is the "crime magnet" that you propose, then moving it to a "better" neighborhood will just bring that neighborhood down, won't it? Right now in PA, as a resident who meets all eligibility requirements, I can legally purchase a firearm from whatever gun shop I choose, even if it is in a seedy neighborhood. The seedy gun shop still has to go through the same background check as the one in a good neighborhood. And if I come up clean, they have no reason to deny my purchase. They should not be held liable for what I decide to do with the purchase. LibertyGal __________________ Requiring a license makes it illegal to do something that was lawful before the license was required.

August 1st, 2006, 03:32 PM	#18
Jamie Young Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PA Posts: 466	Breaking news....http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/15169013.htm This really is a tough call. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!! Free TRP.org stickers RogueElite.netWoolrich Elite Series Distributor

August 1st, 2006, 05:21 PM	#19
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,366	Read about that in local paper today. Superficially at least it does seem Lou's stretched the envelope to much and too often - which is not good for us regarding PR in the gun community. These days dealers need to be squeaky clean. I was interested to see the PA dealer figure as being over 2800. __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

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