South Florida residents strike back at intruders

ExSoldier · September 13th, 2009, 11:01 AM

'Stand Your Ground' law: South Florida residents use 'Stand Your Ground' law to strke back at intruders -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

South Florida residents strike back at intruders

By Robert Nolin and C. Ron Allen

South Florida Sun Sentinel

September 11, 2009

With handguns and baseball bats, South Florida residents in recent days have been striking back at home invaders, beating and even killing those who violate the sanctity of their homes.

Two cases occurred in Palm Beach County. Thursday night, during a struggle, a Wellington homeowner shot and wounded one of two men who broke into his home. On Sept. 5, a group of men in a Lake Worth home turned the tables on a burglar, seizing his baseball bat and using it to break his arm.

And early Thursday in Miami, a man who jumped a fence and entered a home's yard ended up dead after a confrontation with the father and son who lived there. His manner of death has not been released by police, who still are investigating.

Such instances are hardly a trend, experts say, but rather a fluke of circumstances. And they probably don't represent an increase in frustrated homeowners fighting back.

"You have to look at each case individually," said George L. Kirkham, a criminologist at Florida State University. "There's a lot of tension right now in people's lives generally because of the economy. I don't know to what extent those kinds of factors may play into it."

Use of deadly force against intruders is allowed under Florida law, but prosecutors and criminologists caution homeowners that there are limits to when they can harm an intruder.

Florida's Castle Doctrine has long provided that homeowners can use deadly force against intruders, but the homeowner must have a reasonable belief that he or she is in danger of death or great bodily harm. When acting within the limits of the law, homeowners who kill or injure intruders typically are not charged.

"You can use reasonable force in self-defense or to protect your property," said Bruce Winick, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Miami. However, he said, "I don't think you can use this as a license to kill."

For example, if an intruder surrenders or is incapacitated, a homeowner cannot use deadly force; to do so would risk criminal charges.

"We still have a bit of frontier mentality here in Florida, this idea of 'Yes, you can shoot to kill,' " Winick said. "I wouldn't advise people to kill people just because someone comes on your property."

In 2005, the "Stand Your Ground" law went into effect. It expands the Castle Doctrine to say a person can respond to an attack with deadly force not only in the home but anywhere in public.

Winick fears the law can send the wrong message. "To the extent homeowners understand that law, it may give them a signal that they can do anything," he said.

Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office, shares that view.

"The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force. It doesn't give you or anybody a carte blanche right to use force. Anybody who thinks that way better read the law."

Cavanagh, who makes decisions on whether to charge people in self-defense cases, said the threshold is whether people have a reasonable belief they are in immediate danger. If they don't, they shouldn't respond with deadly force, he said.

But in the heat of a confrontation with an invader, homeowners often don't have the luxury of examining their emotions.

"People react in these situations," said Jeff Marcus, chief of the felony division at the Broward State Attorney's Office. "I doubt that they're stopping to ponder the Castle Doctrine."

Robert Nolin can be reached at rnolin@SunSentinel.com or 954-356-4525.

ccw9mm · September 13th, 2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyched-Out Psych Prof.

"You can use reasonable force in self-defense or to protect your property," said Bruce Winick, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Miami. However, he said, "I don't think you can use this as a license to kill."

You're not thinking very clearly, there, bub, if you're still uncertain on that score.

Citizens can use every bit of force they deem necessary to stop a violent, deadly attack on themselves or their families.

And, yes, the criminal who gets ejected probably (erroneously) chooses to think that this is a license to kill.

Tough.

Listening to calming platitudes from bureaucrats such as this has gotten folks nowhere except up a creek without a paddle. It's time for another approach, one that doesn't involve lipstick.

Kudos on citizens, though. Kudos for pulling the head out. Kudos for forcing bureaucrats to take it and deal with it, 'cause we've all had enough bending over for seemingly well-protected criminals and being legally attacked as if we had a damned thing to do with crime.

DaveH · September 13th, 2009, 12:21 PM

Dr. Spin trying to masquerade as News

paul34 · September 13th, 2009, 12:30 PM

There's the Sun-Sentinel for you.

gimpy · September 13th, 2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExSoldier

Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office, shares that view.

"The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force. It doesn't give you or anybody a carte blanche right to use force. Anybody who thinks that way better read the law."
Cavanagh, who makes decisions on whether to charge people in self-defense cases, said the threshold is whether people have a reasonable belief they are in immediate danger.

I think any normal, sane thinking citizen would have more than reasonable belief that anyone who invades his/her home represent an immediate danger to his/her life.

Prosecutors such as Cavanagh would require more restraint from ordinary citizens when it comes to defending their lives than he would a police officer who in the course of performing his duty uses his firearm to eliminate a perceived threat to his life. Here in the Jacksonville area of Florida there are several instances every year when police use deadly force in situations less threatening to them than an act of home invasion would be to a private citizen. Why should the police officer's life be deemed more valuable than mine?

ccw9mm · September 13th, 2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office ...

... who earns "points" by putting people behind bars (justified or not) ...

Quote:

"The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force.

He dares think he speaks for most DA's and LEO's? Holy Hubris, Batman.

No statute in the USA gives citizens "unbridled" anything. Citizens have the right to defend themselves. They have the right to decide how much is enough. It's the "reasonable man" standard of justice, acknowledgment that every citizen has every right to be where he chooses, so long as he's not harming anyone, and specifying the presumption of innocence, in which prosecutors who dare claim such a person wasn't justified in defending himself must bear the responsibility of proving such accusations.

God help us if we ever slide into a mommy-may-I approach to self-defense. The places that have are sorry shadows of what they used to be.

Pistology · September 13th, 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:
Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccw9mm

... who earns "points" by putting people behind bars (justified or not) ...

Cavanaugh Quote:
"The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force...."

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccw9mm

... He dares think he speaks for most DA's and LEO's? Holy Hubris, Batman.

No statute in the USA gives citizens "unbridled" anything. Citizens have the right to defend themselves. They have the right to decide how much is enough. It's the "reasonable man" standard of justice, acknowledgment that every citizen has every right to be where he chooses, so long as he's not harming anyone, and specifying the presumption of innocence, in which prosecutors who dare claim such a person wasn't justified in defending himself must bear the responsibility of proving such accusations.

God help us if we ever slide into a mommy-may-I approach to self-defense. The places that have are sorry shadows of what they used to be.

Well said, ccw9mm

Governement doesn't give us the right to anything. Know what fear of grave bodily injury means, play the hand you're dealt and let the chips fall where they may. "Better to be judged by 12...."

jsnole · September 13th, 2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy

I think any normal, sane thinking citizen would have more than reasonable belief that anyone who invades his/her home represent an immediate danger to his/her life.

Prosecutors such as Cavanagh would require more restraint from ordinary citizens when it comes to defending their lives than he would a police officer who in the course of performing his duty uses his firearm to eliminate a perceived threat to his life. Here in the Jacksonville area of Florida there are several instances every year when police use deadly force in situations less threatening to them than an act of home invasion would be to a private citizen. Why should the police officer's life be deemed more valuable than mine?

I agree with you on the statement above Gimpy! (Nice to see someone else in Jax as well!)

ExSoldier · September 13th, 2009, 03:58 PM

Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office, shares that view.

"The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force. It doesn't give you or anybody a carte blanche right to use force. Anybody who thinks that way better read the law."

This guy, he's angry because HE like the cohorts of his in Miami Dade State Attorney's Office of Katherine Fernandez Rundle (who was a DISCIPLE of Janet Reno) are restrained by this law from filing frivolous prosecutions they know they're going to lose. Thus costing the county millions but do so anyway because they send a chilling antigun message to the community.

The message: Use a gun in self defense and we'll bankrupt you in defense attorney's fees. Yet Reno herself was renowned for letting convicted felons walk on a technicality while prosecuting the law abiding gun owners to the MAX. State Attorney Rundle is the exact same way but now she is cuffed by the new Castle Doctrine Law that has already been tested and held. It should, it was the first of the new breed gun laws that actually work with the Second Amendment instead of against it. Just as Florida was the first to make ccw SHALL ISSUE (although the folks in Washington State are constantly decrying this fact saying THEY had it long before anybody else). I know I had a WA State ccw permit from 1981 to 1984 while I was stationed there and it was no problem for me to obtain and very inexpensive, too. The FL law was crafted in 1987.

Bark'n · September 13th, 2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExSoldier

'Stand Your Ground' law: South Florida residents use 'Stand Your Ground' law to strke back at intruders -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

But in the heat of a confrontation with an invader, homeowners often don't have the luxury of examining their emotions.

"People react in these situations," said Jeff Marcus, chief of the felony division at the Broward State Attorney's Office. "I doubt that they're stopping to ponder the Castle Doctrine."

Robert Nolin can be reached at rnolin@SunSentinel.com or 954-356-4525.

Thank god, a voice of sanity in support of the "good guys!"

September 13th, 2009, 11:01 AM	#1
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,856	South Florida residents strike back at intruders 'Stand Your Ground' law: South Florida residents use 'Stand Your Ground' law to strke back at intruders -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com South Florida residents strike back at intruders By Robert Nolin and C. Ron Allen South Florida Sun Sentinel September 11, 2009 With handguns and baseball bats, South Florida residents in recent days have been striking back at home invaders, beating and even killing those who violate the sanctity of their homes. Two cases occurred in Palm Beach County. Thursday night, during a struggle, a Wellington homeowner shot and wounded one of two men who broke into his home. On Sept. 5, a group of men in a Lake Worth home turned the tables on a burglar, seizing his baseball bat and using it to break his arm. And early Thursday in Miami, a man who jumped a fence and entered a home's yard ended up dead after a confrontation with the father and son who lived there. His manner of death has not been released by police, who still are investigating. Such instances are hardly a trend, experts say, but rather a fluke of circumstances. And they probably don't represent an increase in frustrated homeowners fighting back. "You have to look at each case individually," said George L. Kirkham, a criminologist at Florida State University. "There's a lot of tension right now in people's lives generally because of the economy. I don't know to what extent those kinds of factors may play into it." Use of deadly force against intruders is allowed under Florida law, but prosecutors and criminologists caution homeowners that there are limits to when they can harm an intruder. Florida's Castle Doctrine has long provided that homeowners can use deadly force against intruders, but the homeowner must have a reasonable belief that he or she is in danger of death or great bodily harm. When acting within the limits of the law, homeowners who kill or injure intruders typically are not charged. "You can use reasonable force in self-defense or to protect your property," said Bruce Winick, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Miami. However, he said, "I don't think you can use this as a license to kill." For example, if an intruder surrenders or is incapacitated, a homeowner cannot use deadly force; to do so would risk criminal charges. "We still have a bit of frontier mentality here in Florida, this idea of 'Yes, you can shoot to kill,' " Winick said. "I wouldn't advise people to kill people just because someone comes on your property." In 2005, the "Stand Your Ground" law went into effect. It expands the Castle Doctrine to say a person can respond to an attack with deadly force not only in the home but anywhere in public. Winick fears the law can send the wrong message. "To the extent homeowners understand that law, it may give them a signal that they can do anything," he said. Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office, shares that view. "The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force. It doesn't give you or anybody a carte blanche right to use force. Anybody who thinks that way better read the law." Cavanagh, who makes decisions on whether to charge people in self-defense cases, said the threshold is whether people have a reasonable belief they are in immediate danger. If they don't, they shouldn't respond with deadly force, he said. But in the heat of a confrontation with an invader, homeowners often don't have the luxury of examining their emotions. "People react in these situations," said Jeff Marcus, chief of the felony division at the Broward State Attorney's Office. "I doubt that they're stopping to ponder the Castle Doctrine." Robert Nolin can be reached at rnolin@SunSentinel.com or 954-356-4525. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

September 13th, 2009, 12:21 PM	#3
DaveH VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 2,395	Dr. Spin trying to masquerade as News __________________ Μολὼν λαβέ I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL BTW -- I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice Veni, Vidi, Velcro

September 13th, 2009, 03:58 PM	#9
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,856	Brian Cavanagh, veteran homicide prosecutor with the Broward State Attorney's Office, shares that view. "The 'Stand Your Ground' law, I hate it, and I think I can speak for most prosecutors and law enforcement officers," he said. "It's a dangerous, dangerous law, especially if it's misinterpreted by citizens who think it gives them the right to use unbridled force. It doesn't give you or anybody a carte blanche right to use force. Anybody who thinks that way better read the law." This guy, he's angry because HE like the cohorts of his in Miami Dade State Attorney's Office of Katherine Fernandez Rundle (who was a DISCIPLE of Janet Reno) are restrained by this law from filing frivolous prosecutions they know they're going to lose. Thus costing the county millions but do so anyway because they send a chilling antigun message to the community. The message: Use a gun in self defense and we'll bankrupt you in defense attorney's fees. Yet Reno herself was renowned for letting convicted felons walk on a technicality while prosecuting the law abiding gun owners to the MAX. State Attorney Rundle is the exact same way but now she is cuffed by the new Castle Doctrine Law that has already been tested and held. It should, it was the first of the new breed gun laws that actually work with the Second Amendment instead of against it. Just as Florida was the first to make ccw SHALL ISSUE (although the folks in Washington State are constantly decrying this fact saying THEY had it long before anybody else). I know I had a WA State ccw permit from 1981 to 1984 while I was stationed there and it was no problem for me to obtain and very inexpensive, too. The FL law was crafted in 1987. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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September 13th, 2009, 12:30 PM	#4
paul34 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 770	There's the Sun-Sentinel for you.