Nova

"By a declaration of rights, I mean one which shall stipulate freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of commerce against monopolies, trial by juries in all cases, no suspensions of the habeas corpus, no standing armies. These are fetters against doing evil which no honest government should decline."

-Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson threw in an abolishment of "standing armies" with all of the other rights. And yet, 2nd amendment supporters seem to strongly support standing armies.

However, standing armies represent one of the biggest threats to your rights. You have the right to bear arms, but there is no Constitutional provision for the government to maintain a standing army. Consequently, why does the US government maintain standing armies, and what threat does this pose to your 2nd amendment rights, if any?

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Springfield XD45 4" 13+1

tiwee

I know I am feeding the troll, but here goes:

The Constitution of the United States

Article I - The Legislative Branch.
Section 8 ......
To provide and maintain a Navy;......

Article II. Section 2 - Civilian Power over Military, Cabinet, Pardon Power, Appointments

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

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Amendment 2 advocate - Trying to explain the obvious to the oblivious.

Nova

From your own post. They specifically state that the President will be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy when they are called into the actual Service of the United States.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power...

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

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The Army and Navy are called into service by the Congress, not the President. Since WWII, Congress has not called the Army and Navy into service. Additionally, the money that Congress has appropriated is not even allowed to be used for longer than two years, a further limit to the establishment of standing armies.

The Army and Navy were an exception to the rule. The rule was that armies would be disbanded during peacetime.

The Founding Fathers understood that George III maintained a standing army, with which he abused and harrassed the colonists. Consequently, the Founders guaranteed the Right to Keep and Bear Arms to ensure that despotic tyrants would have to grapple with a well-armed populace. Furthermore, those tyrants would not have a military to oppress the people with, as the Constitution forbade a standing army.

I support what the Constitution says. Everything it says. I don't pick and choose which parts I like and which parts I don't like. If that makes me a troll, too bad. I'm a Constitutionalist troll then...

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Springfield XD45 4" 13+1

OPFOR

I, and the vast majority of others, read that differently. The Army and Navy are always under the control of the President, the Militias (now consisting primarily of the National Guard) are under the control of the President when they are actually called into the service of the United States (as opposed to being in service to their home state). Your interpretation, frankly, makes no sense.

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"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

Nova

Please. This is a content free response - I'd appreciate a serious, informed response.

You must be reading it like a "living document" with your own interpretation, Justice Ginsberg.

Let's look at what the Founders said themselves. Then we can see what they meant.

The Constitutional Authority for Standing Armies? The Political Inquirer

Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts: “Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.” (spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789.)

Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts: “What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.” Rep. of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789).

President James Madison: “…to support the Constitution, which is the cement of the Union, as well in its limitations as in its authorities; to respect the rights and authorities reserved to the States and to the people as equally incorporated with and essential to the success of the general system;… to keep within the requisite limits a standing military force, always remembering that an armed and trained militia is the firmest bulwark of republics – that without standing armies their liberty can never be in danger, nor with large ones safe;…” – President James Madison, First Inaugural address, Saturday, March 4, 1809.

James Madison: “As the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good militia.” (notes of debates in the 1787 Federal Convention)

Thomas Jefferson: “I do not like [in the new Federal Constitution] the omission of a Bill of Rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for… protection against standing armies.”
–Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387

Thomas Jefferson: “Nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace for [defense against invasion].”
–Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334

Thomas Jefferson: “The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Chandler Price, 1807. ME 11:160

Thomas Jefferson: “The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:184

Thomas Jefferson: “Bonaparte… transferred the destinies of the republic from the civil to the military arm. Some will use this as a lesson against the practicability of republican government. I read it as a lesson against the danger of standing armies.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams, 1800. ME 10:154

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With those quotes in mind, it is clear that the Founders differentiated between standing armies and militias. Militias were small militant groups formed by citizens - armies were large groups enlisted and paid by the government.

It is also clear that the Founders adamantly opposed the idea that the government permanently enlist soldiers even during peacetime. Furthermore, they only allowed Congress to declare war, so the PEOPLE could decide when wars were fought and not despots.

The second amendment protects our right to form militias and to bear and keep arms as a further check against tyrannical government. It is an essential right and if you willy nilly support the establishment of a standing army, then you don't support the second amendment - plain and simple. After all:

“Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”

-Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, 1789

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Springfield XD45 4" 13+1

automatic slim

You are right, the founding fathers were opposed to standing armies and the constitutions of several of the early states agree. However I'd hate to see a hastily gathered militia from each state trying to fight the Wehrmacht or Japanese Imperial army. As a matter of fact states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin would have probably refused to fight Germany. New York might have refused to fight Italy and no one would have fought Japan as Hawaii wasn't even a state and few if any of the states would have had any militia there.
The standing army is a necessary evil, as we seemingly are in constant conflict
and have been since Korea. You must admit though, the armed forces have served us well.

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"First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
Edge of Darkness

tangoseal

Well put Nova.

After reading these forums for quite some time now I have come across many people that are rather liberally educated and believe what the mainstream government educated are instilled to believe from youth to adult.

These people are members of this forum.

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"I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

Nova

I have no doubt that our standing army is the best in the world.

The thing is, WWII was fought constitutionally. Congress declared war and we raised an army by enlisting people. The President became Commander-in-Chief at that point. We didn't have to rely on state-controlled militias because the Constitution provided that an army be raised.

That's a very different scenario compared to these days - we haven't declared war since WWII and we keep maintaining an army. There is no Constitutional provision for that.

Considering how nervous the Founding Fathers were in regard to standing armies, we have to ask ourselves whether or not they are good for our 2nd amendment rights.

Ideally, all of those enlisted men who fight in the Army, Navy, Air Force etc, would join up with local militias that would be just as effective as a standing army. Furthermore, they would more effectively eliminate the threat of tyranny.

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Springfield XD45 4" 13+1

CopperKnight

My opinion...

At this point we pretty much have to have a standing army. The reason in its most simplistic terms: technology. The equipment used in the military these days is so advanced, you can't throw together a random group of people any more and have it work out.

What threat to the 2nd? As long as the existing checks and balances are consistently followed by the government (( )) it should pose no threat.

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eschew obfuscation

The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

OPFOR

Out of respect for the forum rules, Nova, I'll refrain from responding in the manner that I'd like to. I'll say only this - please feel free to 'opt out' of the protections afforded to you by the entirely Constitutionally valid US armed forces at any time, and retroactively make yourself a subject of any number of potential invaders who have been deterred by those bodies you so obviously despise. Or, as would be much more likely, by burying yourself in the grave that so surely would have been yours were it not one of those young incarnations of evil, a uniformed defender of your life.

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"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."