It could happen to you - Page 3

It could happen to you

This is a discussion on It could happen to you within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Doghandler It could happen to me? Well, I pay my fines so. . . That works...right up until SWAT gets the wrong ...

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  1. #31
    Ex Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    It could happen to me?

    Well, I pay my fines so. . .
    That works...right up until SWAT gets the wrong address or a case of mistaken identity.
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  2. #32
    Member Array mqqn's Avatar
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    What would a reasonable person have done, knowing what he knew at the time he pulled the trigger?

    Did the victim know he had jumped bond and was being looked for? He should have had many communications in this regard before he was attacked by the "bail bondsmen".

    I also have a little issue with convicted felons working for a bond agency. These fellows would have been background checked etc., so I am assuming this is a little bit of "Modern Detective", and I apologize if it is not entirely fabricated.

    So - if he did not know he was wanted, a reasonable man would, if he had the ability to do so, use lethal force to defend himself against one or more armed assailants that are exhibiting the ability and desire to assault the victim in a way that is intended or likely to inflict death or great bodily harm.

    best

    mqqn
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    That works...right up until SWAT gets the wrong address or a case of mistaken identity.
    I dream about such things and since I've been without a more sensitive being, since my dog has been gone, I've been having sleep problems. The only thing that keeps me from night mares is the local town patrol cop and the Sheriff's deputy that live in my small town hood - they know me and the habits of my coming and going. I don't know them personally but I know their bosses, so, well . . . I take my cue from my Missouri friends, just don't show me anything stupid and you'll be fine.
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  5. #34
    Member Array LuketheDrifter's Avatar
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    Sounds very strange. Maybe they were using old FTA cases as a cover for nefarious reasons? Thinking they could rob this guy and if officers got involved oh hey look we have this FTA warrant. After three years the bonding company wouldn't be able to recover their money on the case as you generally don't have but 90 to 120 days after the first failure to appear and the minimum a recovery agent would charge is sometimes not even worth it. I don't know how it is in LA but you must have your carry permit in GA and be approved by the Sherriff for each county you serve warrants for so you go through multiple background checks. You are also required by state law in GA to notify local law enforcement before serving a warranty so they know what's going on if they get calls.
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  6. #35
    New Member Array LarryC213's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the no-knock warrant and what in Florida was or is called "the silent sweep", should be illegal. AND it is (in my opinion) probably unconstitutional. I used to work for the Brevard County crisis intervention unit. It was a psychiatric inpatient unit for dangerous persons who were also mentally ill. It was also for those persons who were not dangerous, but did not have insurance. The same unit was also used for drunks and drug addicts to detox, if they did not have insurance to pay for the fancy 28 day treatment center which was across the hall. One evening a 15-year-old boy was brought into our unit sometime in the middle of the night. His family had been the recipients of the oh-so tactical silent sweep which had been conducted by the brevard County sheriffs Department. The sheriffs department thought that this was the house of "known" drug dealers. In reality the 15-year-old boy had purchased a five dollar bag of marijuana from someone a few days before. The sheriffs office members broke in during the middle of the night, they were wearing all black, they never identified themselves as police officers and they entered the home with guns drawn. In the master bedroom was the mother and father and a young infant sleeping in a bassinet. Some guy dressed all in black kicks open the Master bedroom door and points a weapon at the father. The father thinking that he and his family were the victims of a home invasion, which I suppose he actually was... Fired at the home invader with his bedside gun. The guy he shot, was of course, a sheriff's deputy. The deputy was wearing body armor, but the round penetrated the vest at the point where the front of the vest and the arm were sewn together. The deputy died and the father/homeowner was charged with murder. Interestingly enough the idiot whose idea it was to do this "silent sweep" is the one who was shot and killed. I think that most of us would have done the exact same thing that the father did. Just because the police or the sheriffs department does something doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it legal and it doesn't make it constitutional. Sometimes the authorities are just stupid. I have several friends who are police officers. It is not my intent to criticize or attack all of the people in the law-enforcement community. But I do feel that in this situation those comments are justified. I am now in my early 50s. I can remember arguments about the old Soviet Union and how America was better, one of those arguments used to be, well at least we don't bust into peoples homes in the middle the night. Well, I suppose that we do now. In my opinion, the police in this country are becoming or have already become too militarized. They don't even look like policemen anymore. Something has happened to this country somewhere along the way, somewhere along the way we have all lost our way. And this country is not as good as it once was. And I suppose as a continuing trend, now they have done away with the posse commitatus (sp?) act. I suppose it doesn't really matter now. Why not use the American military against the American people? The police have been militarized... So what the hell is the difference anymore. The united States doesn't seem very united anymore and we have become a police State. I suppose that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have changed to something with the importance of toilet paper. This entire post is in response to the fellow who started out by saying that he was against people having a gun beside their bed. I have a gun beside my bed, but I live alone...no wife and no children.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Ok, lets look at this in another way.

    There are few wrong house invasions by LE. Before a home is invaded, the address is verified by several people The home is photographed, watched and the address is passed through several people before entrance is even attempted. It may have been 5225 Rosy Ln but the last guy could possibly transpose the number to 5252. One in a thousand chance. While not acceptable at that but it happens just as mistakes are made in every profession. It has been said drs kill more people than bullets each year.

    Ok, so what type house gets a no knock warrant? Drug houses where lots of drugs, guns, cash and suspects are present and not expecting a raid at 2am. Homes of bank robbers or other wanted criminals do not get the middle of the night raids.

    So what type homes are invaded by gangs, thugs and the like? Drug houses where there are lots of drugs, cash and possibly guns as the residents are sleeping. Yes, maybe they will get the wrong house but more unlikely than the police getting the wrong house. They are not interested in taking a chance of getting shot by productive citizens. They burglarize those homes during the day when people are not at home and then with just a couple guys and not an entire gang. They know they will get a few electronics, maybe some loose change from a piggy bank, a couple bottles of liquor and occasionally an unsecured firearm. They want in and out quickly with less chance of injury.

    Unless one lives in such a house, there is little chance police will do a middle of the night raid and even smaller chance a gang will.

    Over 40 yrs with LE, State courts as an expert in accident & crime scene reconstruction, I do not even consider it to be possible to happen to me, any extended family member, friend, neighbor or anyone I know. Only those in a lifestyle attractive to either of the two potentials need worry about such happening. The time I have spent and still do causes me to be more than an armed chair quarterback. Those i see shot is more often an accidental shooting by a family member or a commercial business robbery.
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryC213 View Post
    In my opinion, the no-knock warrant and what in Florida was or is called "the silent sweep", should be illegal. AND it is (in my opinion) probably unconstitutional. I used to work for the Brevard County crisis intervention unit. It was a psychiatric inpatient unit for dangerous persons who were also mentally ill. It was also for those persons who were not dangerous, but did not have insurance. The same unit was also used for drunks and drug addicts to detox, if they did not have insurance to pay for the fancy 28 day treatment center which was across the hall. One evening a 15-year-old boy was brought into our unit sometime in the middle of the night. His family had been the recipients of the oh-so tactical silent sweep which had been conducted by the brevard County sheriffs Department. The sheriffs department thought that this was the house of "known" drug dealers. In reality the 15-year-old boy had purchased a five dollar bag of marijuana from someone a few days before. The sheriffs office members broke in during the middle of the night, they were wearing all black, they never identified themselves as police officers and they entered the home with guns drawn. In the master bedroom was the mother and father and a young infant sleeping in a bassinet. Some guy dressed all in black kicks open the Master bedroom door and points a weapon at the father. The father thinking that he and his family were the victims of a home invasion, which I suppose he actually was... Fired at the home invader with his bedside gun. The guy he shot, was of course, a sheriff's deputy. The deputy was wearing body armor, but the round penetrated the vest at the point where the front of the vest and the arm were sewn together. The deputy died and the father/homeowner was charged with murder. Interestingly enough the idiot whose idea it was to do this "silent sweep" is the one who was shot and killed. I think that most of us would have done the exact same thing that the father did. Just because the police or the sheriffs department does something doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it legal and it doesn't make it constitutional. Sometimes the authorities are just stupid. I have several friends who are police officers. It is not my intent to criticize or attack all of the people in the law-enforcement community. But I do feel that in this situation those comments are justified. I am now in my early 50s. I can remember arguments about the old Soviet Union and how America was better, one of those arguments used to be, well at least we don't bust into peoples homes in the middle the night. Well, I suppose that we do now. In my opinion, the police in this country are becoming or have already become too militarized. They don't even look like policemen anymore. Something has happened to this country somewhere along the way, somewhere along the way we have all lost our way. And this country is not as good as it once was. And I suppose as a continuing trend, now they have done away with the posse commitatus (sp?) act. I suppose it doesn't really matter now. Why not use the American military against the American people? The police have been militarized... So what the hell is the difference anymore. The united States doesn't seem very united anymore and we have become a police State. I suppose that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have changed to something with the importance of toilet paper. This entire post is in response to the fellow who started out by saying that he was against people having a gun beside their bed. I have a gun beside my bed, but I live alone...no wife and no children.
    The difference, as human beings, is that we have a tendency to exchanged the authoritarian structure of our tribal nature, for the authoritarian police state authority of civilization. The Founders understood this and came up with a Bill of Rights and a Republican method to prove it.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array GpTom's Avatar
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    If you have to get out of bed to get your gun you will still have time to defend yourself against a bad guy who broke in. But you won't get shot by the police while you do the same thing. I don't understand how you have more time in one instance than in the other. Are the police supposed to be that much faster than a bad guy at breaking in and finding the homeowner. Sounds like you are afraid that people will defend themselves if you break into the wrong house. How about making sure that you have the right house before you break somebodies door down? I don't like the way you can causally excuse the police for getting the wrong house.
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GpTom View Post
    If you have to get out of bed to get your gun you will still have time to defend yourself against a bad guy who broke in. But you won't get shot by the police while you do the same thing. I don't understand how you have more time in one instance than in the other. Are the police supposed to be that much faster than a bad guy at breaking in and finding the homeowner. Sounds like you are afraid that people will defend themselves if you break into the wrong house. How about making sure that you have the right house before you break somebodies door down? I don't like the way you can causally excuse the police for getting the wrong house.
    Has your house ever been raided wrongly? Know any one who had their home invaded by either group? I can answer that for you. No you don't and no you have not had your home invaded.

    Likely nobody in your city has either. Having such happen is extremely rare , Nationally maybe a half dozen times a year at most that it happens. You are more likely to be involved in a car crash with a police car during a high speed felony chase.

    More people are injured by police in an accidental shooting because of their lousy firearm training each year than any other type incident. Some time ago in the northeast, police were shooting at an armed robbery suspect. They hit several people while returning fire at the suspect and only hit him once in the ankle. Police officers by large are not gun people. They fire their guns only during qualifying and seldom get good results then. Most officers never fire their guns during their career other than during qualifying.
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  11. #40
    Senior Member Array robbnj's Avatar
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    The facts presented don't seem to line up here.
    Maybe some clarification is in order?

    1. Why were two "bounty hunters" going after someone for an outstanding $160 traffic ticket?
    2. Why would two people with two vehicles do this "on the move"? Why not just wait until the guy parked?
    3. Why would two people in two vehicles waste their time and gas for an $80 fee that shouldn't exist in the first place (no bail paid for an unpaid traffic ticket = no bailbond to recover)? As the story is stated, they spent more in gas and ammo than the fee would pay for.
    4. How did he dial 911 as he was being dragged out of the car and cuffed?
    5. If he was in the inside lane making a left, why did he make a left to jump the curb and then wind up on the sidewalk? Jumping the curb would put the car into the opposing lane, which would allow an escape.
    6. The convenient "donut shop" seems too be an add-in to an already very odd story.

    It's public record by now.
    Can you share more info?
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    The facts presented don't seem to line up here.
    Maybe some clarification is in order?

    1. Why were two "bounty hunters" going after someone for an outstanding $160 traffic ticket?
    2. Why would two people with two vehicles do this "on the move"? Why not just wait until the guy parked?
    3. Why would two people in two vehicles waste their time and gas for an $80 fee that shouldn't exist in the first place (no bail paid for an unpaid traffic ticket = no bailbond to recover)? As the story is stated, they spent more in gas and ammo than the fee would pay for.
    4. How did he dial 911 as he was being dragged out of the car and cuffed?
    5. If he was in the inside lane making a left, why did he make a left to jump the curb and then wind up on the sidewalk? Jumping the curb would put the car into the opposing lane, which would allow an escape.
    6. The convenient "donut shop" seems too be an add-in to an already very odd story.

    It's public record by now.
    Can you share more info?
    1. Nobody knows the answer to that question other than possible greed for quick cash by two felons working in a profession they should not have been in to begin with.

    2. A better question would be why they did not knock on his door and take him into custody. They followed him from the apartment parking lot. They could have even waited until he reached his destination. He was not fleeing from anyone and did not know they were after him or even who they were.

    3.Answered above but correct as stated.

    4.He began dialing 911 as they were blocking him in. Smart on his part. A transcript has been obtained from 911 and will be used as evidence against the two felons.

    5. It is a four lane road as are most interloops. It is divided but where he was about to make is left turn is from an under pass of an interstate highway. There is a divider between the east and west bound roadways. He was east bound and intended to turn north on the interstate. There was a curb and a concrete type walk for highway workers, disabled vehicles and such. The same can be found on many inter loops Bridge support columns prevent a vehicle going into the opposing lane of travel. In fact, for about a quarter mile in either direction of the location, the highway is divided by an elevated paved area preventing a cross over but gives parking for disabled vehicles. How one would drive over the curbing with a disabled car eludes me but I have seen vehicles on the paved elevation.

    6. The doughnut shop comment is my tongue in cheek way of picking on police. We have a sense of humor like that. Routinely for the area is a 14 minute response time in a 911 call. Two units responded this time in less than three minutes. There is a Waffle house about a half mile away as well as a large shopping center parking lot where patrol officers often complete written reports and supervisors park to sign them. It is entirely possible they were at either location when the call went out.

    I have learned since the original post that he has retained an attorney to file sit for wrongful action against the bondmen and mental anguish. I figured he would but I did not figure his attorney would call me over the weekend to confirm what the victim told him. I was limited in what I could tell him but was able to confirm the accuracy as to what the man told the attorney.
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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Hodad's Avatar
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    The lesson here is:

    If you get a traffic ticket in Louisiana you sure better pay it or show up in court when you're supposed!
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  14. #43
    Ex Member Array Dougb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Scary story to be sure. But what I am not getting is the 'it could happen to you'. Sounds like an outlier. Illegal, not standard practice and I've never heard of such a thing. I have watched 'Dog, BH' but he's going after felons and recidivists/

    Is is common for bail bond companies to hire and arm former felons?

    Maybe you meant to use it as an example of violent car-jacking could happen to you? Have you ever heard of it before?
    Dog never carries a gun. Maybe a paintball gun with pepper gas, but no real bullets.
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougb View Post
    Dog never carries a gun. Maybe a paintball gun with pepper gas, but no real bullets.
    Excellent example. He is a convicted felon.
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    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I am afraid I would have violently responded to the ambush. If you bust into my house at 2 am I will respond the same. I am an old guy and have been around for awhile.
    Semper Fi
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