Stopping The Threat - Page 8

Stopping The Threat

This is a discussion on Stopping The Threat within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sorry. I did some research and was still doing so when I posted this. This incident (and the subsequent pdf report you see posted here) ...

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  1. #106
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Sorry. I did some research and was still doing so when I posted this. This incident (and the subsequent pdf report you see posted here) caused a lot of grief because of some errors in reporting. Information I found (indeed it says so in the pdf posted here) states the reporting by the Medical Examiner was grossly inaccurate as to the depth of wounds sustained by the actor. The red flags started flying when he stated the bullets were fully expanded and only penetrated 1 inch. Most everyone knows that is physically impossible. It is easy to see fully expanded bullets in the x-rays.

    I suspect the ME was a small town physician serving, perhaps as a volunteer, in that capacity and probably inexperienced in autopsies and reporting - but that is just my opinion. As anyone who has ever looked at autopsy results knows, x-rays do not show tissue damage. The photos are not of a dissected body. It is difficult, if not impossible, from that to tell how deeply the bullets penetrated.

    I believe the FBI was asked to examine the report and came to the same conclusion: the ammo worked.
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  2. #107
    VIP Member Array Struckat's Avatar
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    Anyway....back on topic, shattered hip, shattered ankle, elbow disconectus, severed aorta, and a lot of holes every where, he was still fighting when they tried to cuff him.

    To say the least, a pelvic shot may take some people down, but it not something I would bet my life on.
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  3. #108
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    @Struckat .....Exactly. Sorry for dragging us off topic a bit. I think I got hung at the 1 in penetration thing. You couldn't break any bones in the pelvis with only 1 inch of penetration.
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  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    @Struckat .....Exactly. Sorry for dragging us off topic a bit. I think I got hung at the 1 in penetration thing. You couldn't break any bones in the pelvis with only 1 inch of penetration.
    Yeah, I thought the 1" depth with full expansion seemed odd. In any case, this shooting still remains a great example of why shot placement is a thing. And this guy wasn't even on drugs! (aside from traces of marijuana)
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  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    I actually did shoot a gun out of a guys hand. Not on purpose, but I did it. Chasing this guy to lock him up for a drug deal arrest when he turns on me with a gun in his hand. My thought was " Gee... that gun looks just like mine". I fired one shot by point. he dropped the gun and he, me, and my partner began a wrestling match. When it was over he went to the hospital and we went to the stationhouse. Turns out I hit him and messed up his gun hand..... Go figure. Downside is he then sued me for 6 million dollars and I became known as the six million dollar man... Upside to the downside? The city indemnified me.
    Please tell us that the city didn't pay him six million bucks.
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  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnius View Post
    Most of your COM shots in the figure above were ineffective... largely because the red "bottle" on the target is not accurate. With someone ducking their head so far down to aim, the heart is much higher up than you think. Generally if someone is standing up straight you should find the heart if you draw a line between the armpits and then lay a fist below that line with the thumb to the right of midline and the other fingers to the left.

    Take a look below at what you're shooting.
    Attachment 205273
    Fair enough.

    But the purpose of my post was not to demonstrate what an awesome shot I am (because I'm not) but only to show that I wasn't performing the "let's disable the perp by wounding him in the pelvis" technique, as suggested by the OP.

    In my own defense, I will admit that this was the very first time I had fired that particular gun (an XD.40 Sub-Compact) and the very first time I had ever fired the .40S&W round.

    I will further suggest that most people, after absorbing 24 rounds of .40 S&W rounds, in those areas, will be having a fairly bad day.

    Forget the headshots. You try taking the other 12 rounds (as pictured) and then tell me how ineffective they were. During your ride to the hospital.

    Finally, I will say this: If I were a genius, I'd be a whole lot better at this. Maybe, someday, after I grow-up...
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    - testing was halted after a brief kinetic episode -

  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusIV View Post
    Fair enough.

    But the purpose of my post was not to demonstrate what an awesome shot I am (because I'm not) but only to show that I wasn't performing the "let's disable the perp by wounding him in the pelvis" technique, as suggested by the OP.

    In my own defense, I will admit that this was the very first time I had fired that particular gun (an XD.40 Sub-Compact) and the very first time I had ever fired the .40S&W round.

    I will further suggest that most people, after absorbing 24 rounds of .40 S&W rounds, in those areas, will be having a fairly bad day.

    Forget the headshots. You try taking the other 12 rounds (as pictured) and then tell me how ineffective they were. During your ride to the hospital.

    Finally, I will say this: If I were a genius, I'd be a whole lot better at this. Maybe, someday, after I grow-up...
    To be fair, I wasn't drawing those pictures to disparage your shooting ability. Frankly, depending on speed and distance, you likely have done better than I would have. I have don't have that much experience with shooting, but quite a lot of experience with damaged human bodies. I was merely trying to emphasize the difficulty in achieving stopping hits at center mass AND the fact that the paper targets don't always give us the greatest feedback about the target anatomy.
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  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Straight up question... Why are you going to try and aim at someone pointing a gun at with the idea of only wounding them? The target you selected signifies a gun pointed directly at you, finger on the trigger. There is but one area on that target which affords the hope of no return shot, and it isn't the hip.
    Right. And doing this, deliberately trying to wound an attacker, could work against you in a court of law. This is a bad idea and best left to TV and the movies.
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    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

  10. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Please tell us that the city didn't pay him six million bucks.
    No they did not. he got nothing... wait thats not true, if I remember correctly he got seven-up
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  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by searx View Post
    Most of us have probably seen this target called The Thug.



    When setting up our targets most of us have a mind set, where is the best place to put a round in order to stop the threat. With so much in the media and on the streets a recurring statement made by the majority goes something like this "Well, they didn't have to to kill them did they?"

    When you put up your targets do you have a point of aim that you consistently go to? Because when the time comes if it comes they'll be asking us this question in a court of law.

    How to stop a threat without killing someone has been and always will be my mind set. My point of aim on this target will in my opinion stop a threat dead in their tracks with one shot two at the most. If anyone has ever had a hip pointer injury then you'll probably know where I'm going with this.
    Any time you utilize deadly force there is a reasonable chance the recipient of said force is going to die. That is why it is called deadly force. If someone has threatened or is using deadly force against me or mine I plan to hit them so hard and fast that they will be trying to get ANYWHERE than with me. If they die as a result then I guess they failed in their victim selection process.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnius View Post
    I understand, I'm just saying that this target (maybe in a realistic fashion) demonstrates why it's so hard to physiologically incapacitate someone with pistol shots to COM.
    Also, I believe in that image the heart is exactly where COM would be if you're looking at the presented silhouette.
    How many people have you seen shot?
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  13. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by searx View Post
    What folks, can you name one? because I've yet to see or hear from anyone that has a personal experience with a pelvic shot. If i can see or hear from someone that has used this approach and it failed I'll rest my case.
    A buddy of mine was ambushed and shot from about 3 feet with a 38 wadcutter fired from an RG-38. The bullet struck 2 " below his gunbelt centered on his pelvis. He fired 6 shot from his 357 magnum COM and did not miss. He spent the day in the hospital and returned to work as a cop 6 weeks later. I was with him perhaps 2 minutes after he was shot, he had reloaded, sat down and was applying direct pressure to his wound. Of the gunshots I have seen that was very minor.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    How many people have you seen shot?
    Not enough to be an expert on gunshot wounds, but enough to have an opinion. I haven't counted, but my medical training was at pretty big public hospital. I spent enough time at the ER and on trauma call. The last gunshot guy I took care of was cursing us out while we were trying to do a trauma survey on him after 4 to the gut. He was fighting and had to be sedated and intubated for being disruptive to his medical care.

    Why would you ask?
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  15. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by searx View Post
    Its not a theory, if you take a slug in your pelvic bone you are going down not doubt in my mind whatsoever, if not the first round then the second or third or fourth or fifth or sixth or the...... I'm not on the spray and pray wagon here. i was taught to make a plan then work your plan plain and simple, if that plan fails for one reason or another so be it.

    Your plan is simple, just as is center mass. However, your plan is more difficult to execute than center mass.
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    -PEF, Refugee from the Island of Misfit Toys

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnius View Post
    Not enough to be an expert on gunshot wounds, but enough to have an opinion. I haven't counted, but my medical training was at pretty big public hospital. I spent enough time at the ER and on trauma call. The last gunshot guy I took care of was cursing us out while we were trying to do a trauma survey on him after 4 to the gut. He was fighting and had to be sedated and intubated for being disruptive to his medical care.

    Why would you ask?
    Because it is a fair question of anyone who would have a valid opinion on what works and what does not. You 4 rounds to the gut guy, how deep did they penetrate and what did they damage/ destroy and what sort or drugs if any were in his system? To be fair though it is quite different to see first reactions than those in the ER after ALS and possibly Narcan has been administered.
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    A man has got to know his limitations.

    In a world of snowflakes, be a torch.

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