Things Can Go Wrong - Watch it Happen - Page 2

Things Can Go Wrong - Watch it Happen

This is a discussion on Things Can Go Wrong - Watch it Happen within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I really feared the end of the video was when they fell into traffic, I cannot imagine how horrible that would have been for a ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array RockinRiley's Avatar
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    I really feared the end of the video was when they fell into traffic, I cannot imagine how horrible that would have been for a passer by!

  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
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    Evidently resisted arrest and was evidently drunk or high. He fought back after being tazed. So where is the excessive force? I see an escalation of violence and danger from the suspect. Oh, he's black so any force is excessive, right? White officers are not allowed to use any force on a belligerent and dangerous black person.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array gglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    At 2:22, the suspect reaches into his vehicle through the driver's window. Done. Apply liberal volumes of lethal force.
    That is EXACTLY what officers around the country are afraid to do at this point. If he had been reaching for anything other than a weapon, both officers would have been up on charges. LEOs really do have one hand tied behind their backs in this strange new World.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallsrider View Post
    For those of you who know a lot about LE tactics, what could or should these officers have done to get control of the suspect sooner before he got to his gun? That guy put up an incredible and almost deadly fight.
    I can't speak for any other departments, but ours required lethal force to be ready to deploy prior to using a taser. That meant one officer could never use a taser when alone. It took an additional officer on the scene with gun drawn. I'll defer to some of the other LEOs about what they were trained to do when confronted with a situation where officer safety deteriorated after deploying the taser.

    @frgood He who watches over your family and those precious officers, neither slumbers nor sleeps. Psalm 121
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Fallsrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I can't speak for any other departments, but ours required lethal force to be ready to deploy prior to using a taser. That meant one officer could never use a taser when alone. It took an additional officer on the scene with gun drawn. I'll defer to some of the other LEOs about what they were trained to do when confronted with a situation where officer safety deteriorated after deploying the taser.
    @frgood He who watches over your family and those precious officers, neither slumbers nor sleeps. Psalm 121
    Thanks OldChap. That sounds like a very reasonable policy. These two officers obviously waited too long to use lethal force. And they almost paid for it permanently. I would hate to think that their department's policy put them in that position, but that's always possible.
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Czombie's Avatar
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    They better be glad he ran out of ammo. I know its easy to be an "after the fact expert" but the big tall trooper really messed up when he tried to turn and run pushing his partner aside and down in the process. The little trooper was drawn and ready to fire until he got knocked off balance by his partner. You can't outrun bullets.

    I know natural instincts are gonna kick in, but it almost cost both of them their lives. Thankful they are both ok.

  8. #22
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallsrider View Post
    For those of you who know a lot about LE tactics, what could or should these officers have done to get control of the suspect sooner before he got to his gun? That guy put up an incredible and almost deadly fight.
    Instead of punching him, one or both could have put him to sleep. People can take incredible amounts of punches and shrug them off. Affect a choke and immobilize the head, he's going out in pretty quick order.

    OP, I watched it the other day when it was initially reported. First thought was, put him to sleep. There's absolutely no other reason for the two troopers to have lost to this guy except they just didn't have sufficient h2h training.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Instead of punching him, one or both could have put him to sleep. People can take incredible amounts of punches and shrug them off. Affect a choke and immobilize the head, he's going out in pretty quick order.

    OP, I watched it the other day when it was initially reported. First thought was, put him to sleep. There's absolutely no other reason for the two troopers to have lost to this guy except they just didn't have sufficient h2h training.
    That was my thinking exactly, but I do watch too many RNC's on MMA!
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Instead of punching him, one or both could have put him to sleep. People can take incredible amounts of punches and shrug them off. Affect a choke and immobilize the head, he's going out in pretty quick order.

    OP, I watched it the other day when it was initially reported. First thought was, put him to sleep. There's absolutely no other reason for the two troopers to have lost to this guy except they just didn't have sufficient h2h training.
    Brownie, this reminds me of that other video someone (don't remember who) recently posted of a Hispanic man who refused to exit his vehicle, during a stop by two officers.

    Both of them were reasonable and polite to the man, during protracted dialog as the perp continued to ignore, and refused to follow officer's orders.
    The two-man team allowed his little game to continue until they found him shooting at the, and at lease one of them was gut shot.

    By my reckoning, there are two important things here (not ONLY two) that are worth taking from these scenes:

    1. The longer the clock runs on an intervention like this, without the officers establishing complete control, the more likely the outcome will be BAD.

    2. If two (or more) burly cops can't control the perp, what is the likelihood that ONE "average" concealed carry "operator" will fare any better ?

    BOTTOM LINE: If you fail to act decisively, and act EARLY, you might not have have a second chance.
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  11. #25
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusIV View Post
    Brownie, this reminds me of that other video someone (don't remember who) recently posted of a Hispanic man who refused to exit his vehicle, during a stop by two officers.

    Both of them were reasonable and polite to the man, during protracted dialog as the perp continued to ignore, and refused to follow officer's orders.
    The two-man team allowed his little game to continue until they found him shooting at the, and at lease one of them was gut shot.

    By my reckoning, there are two important things here (not ONLY two) that are worth taking from these scenes:

    1. The longer the clock runs on an intervention like this, without the officers establishing complete control, the more likely the outcome will be BAD.

    2. If two (or more) burly cops can't control the perp, what is the likelihood that ONE "average" concealed carry "operator" will fare any better ?

    BOTTOM LINE: If you fail to act decisively, and act EARLY, you might not have have a second chance.
    When two of us on stakeout in a Catholic rectory caught the torch putting a match to the church after breaking a window [ we had to chase him in the snow and on slippery at times iced over areas ], we caught up to him when he tried to hop a fence. He turned and kicked the other leo [ much bigger than I was ] and when he turned to do so, I moved on him and put him in a sleeper/choke hold. He quit struggling pretty quickly.

    When we were assigned to the case, we were told in no uncertain terms this turd would try to kill us if he could, and had on numerous occasions put several officers trying to arrest him to the hospital. Just a few months before he had escaped 3 officers who he injured. Were told we might have to shoot him. Once he was choked to submission, he was cuffed and we called for transport, this was 2-3am.

    When the shift Sgt arrived, he was looking both of us up and down and Bobby [ the other officer ] asked him what was wrong. The Sgt. stated he was looking for our injuries, to which Bobby replied that I was there, he'd been put to sleep quickly and then cuffed, neither of us were injured except Bobby getting kicked in the shin but suffering no real injury.

    Next day, it was big news in town that he'd been caught [ he'd threatened to also burn the fire chiefs house to the ground with him and his family in it ]. The fire chief, police chief were summonsed at that hour, and we were told we were to return to the station, the fire chief had called the state fire marshall's office in Boston and they were sending someone to take our statements before we could secure for the night. The fire chief wanted every i dotted and t crossed to make sure this guy got put away for a long time. I testified at the GJury and he was indicted, later convicted to 18 years without the chance of parole [ he'd been an arsonist on the run for years and had never been convicted and done time for more than a few years and out before that.

    He was like a body builder short little fire plug who officers had a hard time getting a handle on in the past when caught. He wasn't much of a problem when he made the mistake of turning from me to Bobby when he kicked him. I took advantage of his turning his shoulder to do so and put a choke on him till he became sleepy, then he was laid down and cuffed without any effort or real struggle. Being told we might have to shoot the guy, he'd try to kill us if caught, I wasn't interested in the PC academy SOP of not using chokes for fear of injuring him.

    Both of us were awarded plagues for our capturing him and the head priest wrote letters of our great work in saving the church and capturing him, which were put in out permanent jackets. In reality, it was a non event, just another turd who had to be subdued, restrained and transported, but his reputation preceded him and everyone made a big deal of the two of us taking him into custody without injury to ourselves or him.

    That's why when watching this one the other day, first thought was "put that POS to sleep, and end the struggling".

    ETA, the choke I used on him was the 70's Marine Corps choke we were taught. Just something I always found very effective. Later in life with a lot more h2h training, we learned control the head, you control the body, and that absolutely holds true in several instances I've been involved with. Take their air, there's not a lot of fighting that's going to continue for any length of time. Might not be PC on the LEO world, but as we see in this video, PC can get you injured or killed. Once the fight is on, as you suggest, gain control sooner rather than later. That PC crap people believe one should follow goes out the window when it's me or them whether I was in uniform or not.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    He was like a body builder short little fire plug who officers had a hard time getting a handle on in the past when caught. He wasn't much of a problem when he made the mistake of turning from me to Bobby when he kicked him. I took advantage of his turning his shoulder to do so and put a choke on him till he became sleepy, then he was laid down and cuffed without any effort or real struggle. Being told we might have to shoot the guy, he'd try to kill us if caught, I wasn't interested in the PC academy SOP of not using chokes for fear of injuring him.
    I'm not certain, but I think our department forbade the use of choke holds altogether. IIRC the talk around the locker room involved comments about marksmanship and trigger control.
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  13. #27
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I'm not certain, but I think our department forbade the use of choke holds altogether. IIRC the talk around the locker room involved comments about marksmanship and trigger control.
    Ours forbade it too, right from the states academies on through dept SOP/policy. Ya know what, not one word was said about how I subdued him by anyone.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    Evidently resisted arrest and was evidently drunk or high. He fought back after being tazed. So where is the excessive force? I see an escalation of violence and danger from the suspect. Oh, he's black so any force is excessive, right? White officers are not allowed to use any force on a belligerent and dangerous black person.
    God forbid.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusIV View Post
    Brownie, this reminds me of that other video someone (don't remember who) recently posted of a Hispanic man who refused to exit his vehicle, during a stop by two officers.

    Both of them were reasonable and polite to the man, during protracted dialog as the perp continued to ignore, and refused to follow officer's orders.
    The two-man team allowed his little game to continue until they found him shooting at the, and at lease one of them was gut shot.

    By my reckoning, there are two important things here (not ONLY two) that are worth taking from these scenes:

    1. The longer the clock runs on an intervention like this, without the officers establishing complete control, the more likely the outcome will be BAD.

    2. If two (or more) burly cops can't control the perp, what is the likelihood that ONE "average" concealed carry "operator" will fare any better ?

    BOTTOM LINE: If you fail to act decisively, and act EARLY, you might not have have a second chance.
    This is so true but also so difficult to determine... for armed civilians, in particular. A police officer in a city or densely populated suburban area can easily experience a number of close quarter encounters with belligerent people so he gets on the job training. On the other hand, civilians will rarely run into anything like this so when it happens, they almost can't believe they are the target of an attack.

    I took a video course about a year and a half ago and one of the most valuable truths that came out of it was this.

    "The key to avoiding the freeze is to know there will be a fight before it happens."

    May sound a little nuts but it makes perfect sense, especially in the context in which it was taught and discussed. Basically it means to expect that something is going to happen, observe your escapes, know the climate of where you are, and be ready to execute a definitive and sensible plan to survive a bad situation.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array BlackhawkGirl's Avatar
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    I could not finish watching it.

    They should not have messed with soft weapons in the first place. They should have just shot him and they still would have ended up in court they same way they did, except without near fatal injuries.
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