Moral dilemma, what would you do? - Page 3

Moral dilemma, what would you do?

This is a discussion on Moral dilemma, what would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I will not intervene in situations where I am not threatened, but rather will call LE and be a good witness. However if another is ...

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Thread: Moral dilemma, what would you do?

  1. #31
    MJK
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    I will not intervene in situations where I am not threatened, but rather will call LE and be a good witness. However if another is threatened in close proximity then I am also in that threat circle and will respond accordingly.
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  2. #32
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    I usually like Ellifritz's what-if scenarios, but felt he missed the mark on this one. The dilemma presented is a false one. I voiced that opinion to Greg, and he disagreed. It happens. Apples are apples, oranges are oranges.
    OldChap, Havok, TSKnight and 1 others like this.
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  3. #33
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    It DEPENDS is always the first thought in these self defense scenarios.

    For me, one of the most dangerous activities I do on a regular basis is buy cigarettes in a gas station (yes I know the smoking is actually worse). Most of my daily life is fairly mundane but going in to buy cigarettes is one of the only times where my "threat" level rises. I am friendly with the regular clerks, especially one in particular who loves my dog when I bring him in.

    Of course the "it depends" counts here. But at this old school gas station there is very little space inside, it is not a modern day convenience store that has tons of items. So in my particular case, if someone robs the place, at best I am 5-7 feet away from them. If someone has drawn a gun and introduced the threat of violence into my life I am not going to assume he'll just get his cash and leave. Who knows what he will do. But I know that I will be under threat and respond accordingly.
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    These scenario assumptions and the "You'll be arrested and spend $50,000 in legal bills" responses just turn me off.

    Outside of NYC, what prosecutor is going to push charges on someone who shot an agitated, armed robber sticking a gun in a store clerk's face, and what grounds does that same robber--should he even survive--have for filing a lawsuit for getting his ass shot while armed robbing the store?

    I'm surprised the author didn't throw in the "There'll be blood running in the streets" response also. The myths outweighs the merits in far too many of these scares.

    I don't know of any state law that specifies deadly force is allowed in defense of self and loved ones only, but not others. You are just as much in legal risk defending your "loved ones" as you are the store clerk.

    It is either within you to help others or it is not. Don't make liability issues a moral decision. Those who do not have it within them should hope they never find themselves in the clerk's position.
    This^

    People need to be familiar with their states laws regarding deadly force. The situation he presents is not even remotely realistic in most states. As I have said many times, I dont carry a gun for other people. I carry it for me, and for those I love. For me, the decision to get involved would be based purely on whether or not I want to get involved with a dangerous situation that I dont need to be involved in, and that decision would be based on where I stand when I see all this taking place.
    We get the government we deserve.

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    My answer, as always, is "It Depends". There is a very good possibility that I will intervene, but it will be from a possition of knowlege, training, and well thought out flexible tactics.
    Keep in mind. Just because you carry a gun, does not mean it is the only or best solution to the problem.
    One thing you can be sure of. I have NO sympathy for the BG.
    This is one reason I come here to think through "what if's" and sometimes look at them through someone elses perception.


    Sunday, December 16, 1979. A date that I will never forget, no matter how much I might want to. Yet it was a pivotal moment in shaping who I am and why I think the way I do today.

    I was raised that it is a man's duty to respect and defend women. That lesson could very well have cost me my life when I was 16. Back then I didn't think, I acted.
    My rash thoughtless actions didn't change anything except add myself to the victim list.

    Witnessed three guys (all bigger than me) taking advantage of a young woman. I knew who she was. She was 4 years older than I, her younger brother a year behind me in school.
    My first mistake was yelling before I took the first guy out. My second mistake was not capitalizing on the effect when two guys see blood pouring out of their fiends head.
    I froze with the thought that I had killed him.
    His buddies collected their wits and beat me to a pulp and left me in a puddle of blood to watch them finish up with the young woman and carry their buddy away.
    I thank God that they didn't use the fence post I used on their friend on me.
    OldVet, G26Raven, Kenny53 and 1 others like this.
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  7. #36
    VIP Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    If you take the gun out of it.... Would you wade into fast moving water to save someone else? There is still clear and present possibility of you loosing your life. By the same standard you could still be sued if the person you are trying to save is killed...... So would you? DR

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    My answer, as always, is "It Depends". There is a very good possibility that I will intervene, but it will be from a possition of knowlege, training, and well thought out flexible tactics.
    Keep in mind. Just because you carry a gun, does not mean it is the only or best solution to the problem.
    One thing you can be sure of. I have NO sympathy for the BG.
    This is one reason I come here to think through "what if's" and sometimes look at them through someone elses perception.


    Sunday, December 16, 1979. A date that I will never forget, no matter how much I might want to. Yet it was a pivotal moment in shaping who I am and why I think the way I do today.

    I was raised that it is a man's duty to respect and defend women. That lesson could very well have cost me my life when I was 16. Back then I didn't think, I acted.
    My rash thoughtless actions didn't change anything except add myself to the victim list.

    Witnessed three guys (all bigger than me) taking advantage of a young woman. I knew who she was. She was 4 years older than I, her younger brother a year behind me in school.
    My first mistake was yelling before I took the first guy out. My second mistake was not capitalizing on the effect when two guys see blood pouring out of their fiends head.
    I froze with the thought that I had killed him.
    His buddies collected their wits and beat me to a pulp and left me in a puddle of blood to watch them finish up with the young woman and carry their buddy away.
    I thank God that they didn't use the fence post I used on their friend on me.
    I suppose one could look at that and say your response was not the cause of your failure but your failure to continue your action once begun. Same could happen if defending oneself--failure to follow though to the end. I respect your attempt though, even if not successful.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I suppose one could look at that and say your response was not the cause of your failure but your failure to continue your action once begun. Same could happen if defending oneself--failure to follow though to the end. I respect your attempt though, even if not successful.
    Thanks OV.
    That was the first time I ever struck someone in anger. Yes, it was in defense of the young woman, but my actions were anger driven with no rational thought to what might be the consequences. I was not prepared for the reality of what I am capable of.
    What that incident prompted me to do was seek training, which continues to this day. Most of that training has been weapons based, but not entirely firearm related.
    One of my first teachers refused to teach technique until I had mastered my emotions. Probably one of the most important lessons I have ever learned.
    OldVet, G26Raven, OldChap and 1 others like this.
    Democracy:
    Two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
    Freedom:
    A well armed lamb contesting the vote.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Glock2201's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    My answer, as always, is "It Depends". There is a very good possibility that I will intervene, but it will be from a possition of knowlege, training, and well thought out flexible tactics.
    Keep in mind. Just because you carry a gun, does not mean it is the only or best solution to the problem.
    One thing you can be sure of. I have NO sympathy for the BG.
    This is one reason I come here to think through "what if's" and sometimes look at them through someone elses perception.


    Sunday, December 16, 1979. A date that I will never forget, no matter how much I might want to. Yet it was a pivotal moment in shaping who I am and why I think the way I do today.

    I was raised that it is a man's duty to respect and defend women. That lesson could very well have cost me my life when I was 16. Back then I didn't think, I acted.
    My rash thoughtless actions didn't change anything except add myself to the victim list.

    Witnessed three guys (all bigger than me) taking advantage of a young woman. I knew who she was. She was 4 years older than I, her younger brother a year behind me in school.
    My first mistake was yelling before I took the first guy out. My second mistake was not capitalizing on the effect when two guys see blood pouring out of their fiends head.
    I froze with the thought that I had killed him.
    His buddies collected their wits and beat me to a pulp and left me in a puddle of blood to watch them finish up with the young woman and carry their buddy away.
    I thank God that they didn't use the fence post I used on their friend on me.
    I applaud you for taking on 3 guys bigger than you to help out a young lady. It sucks it ended the way it did but that took courage. I sometimes wonder if a lot people that age today would stick their neck out to help someone like that.
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  11. #40
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
    If you take the gun out of it.... Would you wade into fast moving water to save someone else? There is still clear and present possibility of you loosing your life. By the same standard you could still be sued if the person you are trying to save is killed...... So would you? DR
    I know enough about swift water rescue (having worked with firefighters and law enforcement trained in this practice) to know that if you do not have the right gear and training, you're almost certain to die. So, no I would not.
    If something is important enough, you will find a way. If it's not, you will find an excuse.
    What we have here is a failure to communicate...
    If you are asked to be the hero, be the hero.

  12. #41
    DG
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    So, you're walking back to your car in a shopping center parking lot. You hear a child screaming "No, no, no!!!" You look and see a bearded man with tattoos and a Harley Davidson T-shirt forcing the child into his truck. There's a child abduction in progress, so you draw your weapon and approach. The man sees you approaching and draws a weapon also. You fire first. He falls to the ground. You saved the child.

    The police arrive quickly. You tell them what happened.

    The man you shot also talks as they are loading him into the ambulance. He's the child's father. The child was upset because he wouldn't buy a toy for her. When the child threw a tantrum, they left the store and he was putting the child in the car to take her home. He saw you approaching with gun drawn and drew his gun to protect himself and his child.

    He's a member of the National Guard, a volunteer firefighter, and a Baptist preacher. He's wearing the biker gear today because the group that he rides with is holding their annual Toys for Tots rally later that afternoon. He dies from his wounds on the way to the hospital. He leaves behind a loving wife and two children, both under the age of five. His father in law is the local district attorney.

    The truth is you're trying to process information faster than the world's fastest supercomputer, and you pray to God you come up with the right answer and act accordingly.
    Simplistic solutions to complex problems seldom produce satisfying results.

  13. #42
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    I don't, and have never smoked! If I was out and about, my second Wife of 25 years would most likely be with me. I would only be concerned with her. So manoeuvring my Lady to a safe place would first and foremost in my mind.

    My Blue Tooth earpiece would be in my left ear, so speaking the word "Emergency" would contact 911. And being a good witness would be my main focus.
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  14. #43
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    Not sure what I would do. One of our favorite restaurants (spaghetti factory) is in a high end mall in Salt Lake City. This mall was the site of a mass shooting a few years ago. Young Muslim kid decided to have his own jihad (news played that part down). When finished with dinner the bride always wants to shop in this one store and I sit on the bench outside. Just feet from where I sit is where one of the victims body was found. I have run many scenarios through my head while sitting there and most of them end up in a defensive position protecting my darling bride. But I don't know active shooter, I am armed, I think I would have to act. I hope and pray I never have to find out.
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  15. #44
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    My thinking on this has evolved over the years, and I agree with "it depends."

    I think the basic analogy of the $50,000 is pretty silly, that's apples and oranges for several reasons. But I find this a bit more problematic:

    "All of those innocent victims had the same opportunity I had with regard to choosing to get quality training and carry a gun. For whatever reason, they chose not to purse those avenues. Decisions have consequences."

    I understand the sentiment, and at one time agreed, but very few people are truly prepared for such an event. It's not like most people carry guns and those who don't have deliberately rebelled from common sense. We who do carry are the weirdoes, while most never seriously consider it. So you could just as well say "she had the same opportunity I had to train on applying a tourniquet. Why should I risk getting HIV or hepatitis? Decisions have consequences." Logically defensible, but still sociopathic. You don't write off a human life because they weren't prepared for a life-threatening scenario.
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  16. #45
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    Lots of what ifs involved here.
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    Doing my best to stay left of boom.

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