Moral dilemma, what would you do? - Page 5

Moral dilemma, what would you do?

This is a discussion on Moral dilemma, what would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Swedishsteel I am curious. What exactly is the significant penalty that places like NY impose on one who elects not to help; ...

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Thread: Moral dilemma, what would you do?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swedishsteel View Post
    I am curious. What exactly is the significant penalty that places like NY impose on one who elects not to help; "help" being defined by members of society who were not there? If it is some perceived sense of shame or loss of face, as intimated by your use of the words "walk away" or "run", then I am comfortable telling you that I quit acting to suit the expectations of strangers quite a log time ago.
    Believe what you wish. I have seen it. More importantly, I have tried to help those who just stood by and did nothing when they might have prevented a tragedy. It isn't the penalty of shame and scorn enacted by the community nearly so much as that imposed on oneself. I'll not rewrite what I write so often. You can do a search for some of the consequences I have described - and I have only delivered the sanitized version.

    BTW I don't think anyone, especially me, would ever tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Just be forewarned. If it ever happens to you, you had better be prepared to deal with the reality of your actions.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  2. #62
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Yes. I have heard a court decision siding with an off duty officer who walked into such a situation. He reasoned that his life was in equal danger as everyone else in the immediate area from the man with a gun. His reaction, using lethal force very skillfully, was determined to be the action any reasonable man would undertake in the same situation and the charges were dismissed. In a discussion with him later, he told me he thought about his duty to act, but said everything in him told him this was not duty, this was about surviving.

    @Swedishsteel I think the option to walk away, or run, is almost always there. I will state for the record that choosing not to help usually carries a significant penalty from the community - even in places like NYC, where it is fashionable to run, stand and observe, or video the mayhem with a cellphone. Like it or not, there is a price for every action.
    I don't feel the OP's scenario presented any idea of anyone playing LEO and rushing in to the rescue. I agree with being a good witness and not getting involved with most incidences is good advice. However, given the situation presented, and others like it, should it be that one walks away to call 911 and be the good witness, and in the 5-10 minutes it takes for LE to arrive, that "good witness" witnesses the robber shoot the clerk in the head for whatever reason the robber chose. For me, that would be a tough decision to live with, knowing I was in there, had the opportunity to prevent that, and didn't because I was more concerned with my personal well being--physically and liability wise, as some mention.
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  3. #63
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    Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to UN-swear to the oath I took in 1971, after due consideration to the ramifications of taking it.
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  5. #64
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to UN-swear to the oath I took in 1971, after due consideration to the ramifications of taking it.
    The most difficult thing I had to resolve was the privacy of someone confessing to me as a chaplain, and the oath and responsibility I had as a law enforcement officer. On the one hand I felt an obligation to make sure people could speak to me, yet when someone confessed to a crime, I knew I had to report it. And now that I'm retired, the oath remains.
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxHeavy View Post
    IMO....anyone holding anyone at gun point means business....act accordingly.
    Yikes, the clues are rolling in! Hold on a split second while I consult my feng shui . . . don't want to unreasonably or illegally decorate the place with lethal force . . . or not.
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  7. #66
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to UN-swear to the oath I took in 1971, after due consideration to the ramifications of taking it.
    The oath did not create my beliefs nor commitments, it only reinforced them. Having retired from the service, I do not still follow that oath, but I still have my beliefs and commitments that existed long before taking that oath.
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  8. #67
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I don't feel the OP's scenario presented any idea of anyone playing LEO and rushing in to the rescue. I agree with being a good witness and not getting involved with most incidences is good advice. However, given the situation presented, and others like it, should it be that one walks away to call 911 and be the good witness, and in the 5-10 minutes it takes for LE to arrive, that "good witness" witnesses the robber shoot the clerk in the head for whatever reason the robber chose. For me, that would be a tough decision to live with, knowing I was in there, had the opportunity to prevent that, and didn't because I was more concerned with my personal well being--physically and liability wise, as some mention.
    I knew there was a soft side under that gruff exterior! I am sending YOU a Christmas card this year!
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  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    I knew there was a soft side under that gruff exterior! I am sending YOU a Christmas card this year!

    Yeah, right! I've heard that story before.
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  10. #69
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Yes. I have heard a court decision siding with an off duty officer who walked into such a situation. He reasoned that his life was in equal danger as everyone else in the immediate area from the man with a gun. His reaction, using lethal force very skillfully, was determined to be the action any reasonable man would undertake in the same situation and the charges were dismissed. In a discussion with him later, he told me he thought about his duty to act, but said everything in him told him this was not duty, this was about surviving.

    @Swedishsteel I think the option to walk away, or run, is almost always there. I will state for the record that choosing not to help usually carries a significant penalty from the community - even in places like NYC, where it is fashionable to run, stand and observe, or video the mayhem with a cellphone. Like it or not, there is a price for every action.
    The reactions of other's rarely causes me a moments notice. My own thoughts and feelings are a much different story.
    I seldom share as much detail as I have in this thread. Some of the why is that it will be 30 years this Easter since that young woman took her own life. Visited with her younger brother this past week. The ripples still exist after all this time.
    I don't regret what I did and would do it again if given the opportunity.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to UN-swear to the oath I took in 1971, after due consideration to the ramifications of taking it.
    Mine wasn't all that subjective:

    "I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

    Nothing in there concerning moral dilemmas.
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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    The reactions of other's rarely causes me a moments notice. My own thoughts and feelings are a much different story.
    I seldom share as much detail as I have in this thread. Some of the why is that it will be 30 years this Easter since that young woman took her own life. Visited with her younger brother this past week. The ripples still exist after all this time.
    I don't regret what I did and would do it again if given the opportunity.
    I would have said that until I worked with a family who had experienced the full gamut of hatred expressed by those who thought that behavior was appropriate towards young children. I've come to realize that what I do can cause significant pain for my family and other people I care about.

    The example should be noted how the wrath of a whole country has been turned on the deputy in Florida who chose to remain personally safe, rather than attempt to stop a killer in a school. I would imagine that in his mind, he never envisioned how the reactions of others could affect him and his family beforehand. In my experience, most folks are like him, never believing how nasty people can get about things.

    The huge difference is that you did the best you knew how to change the outcome. Nobody has the right to stand in judgement of your actions. What happened to her was in no way your fault. I pray you know that.

    @Mike1956 Mine was a little different. Basically, like this:

    I (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm), that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution and laws of the State of Texas, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and defend them against enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge, the duties of a peace officer, taking the office of Police Chaplain, serving my duty to the best of my ability, so help me God.
    I think that is pretty close. And yes, there are always consequences - some seen and understood, some completely unanticipated.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I would have said that until I worked with a family who had experienced the full gamut of hatred expressed by those who thought that behavior was appropriate towards young children. I've come to realize that what I do can cause significant pain for my family and other people I care about.

    The example should be noted how the wrath of a whole country has been turned on the deputy in Florida who chose to remain personally safe, rather than attempt to stop a killer in a school. I would imagine that in his mind, he never envisioned how the reactions of others could affect him and his family beforehand. In my experience, most folks are like him, never believing how nasty people can get about things.

    The huge difference is that you did what you could. Nobody has the right to stand in judgement of your actions. What happened to her was in now way your fault. I pray you know that.
    Sometimes, there is no easy choice. Whichever way one goes or doesn't go, there are consequences.
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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    I might shoot to stop physical violence inflicted on a person if it appeared to be life threatening or disparity of force compelled me act.

    If a perp has a gun pointed at a person, I will base my decision on these factors:
    State of mind/behavior of the perp
    Likelihood of one shot incapacitation
    Risk to bystanders including the victim

    I will never fire a warning shot.
    I might give a verbal warning but only having the perp targeted.
    If I shoot it will be to kill.
    I tried, apparently without success, to send a PM about this post. I would urge you to edit or delete the post or at least the part referencing killing. Should bad things happen and you end up on the stand I will guarantee a zealous lawyer will have found this post and portray you as a heartless premeditating cold blooded hunter/killer. You can be arrested for almost anything and certainly sued for anything by almost anyone, even in those states that have laws precluding suit in the case of a "good shoot". IN the meanwhile, best wishes, thank you for your service and keep your eye on the front sight.
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    100% of home invasions occur......in someone's home.....usually without warning.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbadger View Post
    I tried, apparently without success, to send a PM about this post. I would urge you to edit or delete the post or at least the part referencing killing. Should bad things happen and you end up on the stand I will guarantee a zealous lawyer will have found this post and portray you as a heartless premeditating cold blooded hunter/killer. You can be arrested for almost anything and certainly sued for anything by almost anyone, even in those states that have laws precluding suit in the case of a "good shoot". IN the meanwhile, best wishes, thank you for your service and keep your eye on the front sight.
    That varies hugely state by state. In almost no states of the United States may you be arrested for "almost anything". Read the oath I, and every peace officer took in post #71 above. The law has quite a bit to say about who may be arrested. Never is it for "almost anything."

    Civil suits may not be filed in Texas in the case of a shooting ruled to be justified. Other states have similar shield laws. You may retain a lawyer, have him or her pay the fee to file a suit with the clerk of the court, and the suit will be dismissed as soon as it reaches the judge's desk. You will forfeit the filing fee and attorney's fees - if you could ever find an attorney dumb enough to risk the wrath of the court for filing in the first place.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  16. #75
    Member Array oldbadger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    That varies hugely state by state. In almost no states of the United States may you be arrested for "almost anything". Read the oath I, and every peace officer took in post #71 above. The law has quite a bit to say about who may be arrested. Never is it for "almost anything."

    Civil suits may not be filed in Texas in the case of a shooting ruled to be justified. Other states have similar shield laws. You may retain a lawyer, have him or her pay the fee to file a suit with the clerk of the court, and the suit will be dismissed as soon as it reaches the judge's desk. You will forfeit the filing fee and attorney's fees - if you could ever find an attorney dumb enough to risk the wrath of the court for filing in the first place.
    You missed the point.
    100% of home invasions occur......in someone's home.....usually without warning.

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