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Are the gun/ammo needs of the armed citizen different than for a LEO?

This is a discussion on Are the gun/ammo needs of the armed citizen different than for a LEO? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by pskys2 Does he really compete? I've seen video of him training with Taran, but haven't noticed his name in any results. But ...

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Thread: Are the gun/ammo needs of the armed citizen different than for a LEO?

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskys2 View Post
    Does he really compete? I've seen video of him training with Taran, but haven't noticed his name in any results. But it might be only in California, but wait aren't there issues with hi-caps and AR's and other "bad" stuff there too?
    He competes, google Keanu Reeves 3 gun. Butlers range holds 3 gun matches, he shoots them there that we know of.
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  2. #137
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    My thoughts have evolved. If I ever buy another gun, it will be another revolver. I live a low risk lifestyle at 60 years of age. I like the toughness and simplicity of wheel guns. Some people say wheel guns lack capacity. Really? How bad a shot are you? Miami Vice and Rambo scenarios are not likely in my world. I don't need a special scope, or grip, 3 mag. pouch, etc. The gun hobby world is driven by money. I prefer to keep my money.
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  3. #138
    Senior Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Are the gun/ammo needs of the armed citizen different than for a LEO?

    Now that seems like direct enough question? A Police Officer, in most cases, is issued firearms, according to his/her job description! In most of their daily lives/duties, these weapons stay cased or holstered.
    Because those tools of the trade, so to speak, only come in to play, when that job puts them into harm's way. Because they have no idea when, or how that is going to play out.
    Like any other trained tradesman, the tools you have is what you have. Hense, a Pistol has to have enough rounds on board, to cover incidents that have happened, somewhere, sometime.

    Plus on average, two spare fully loaded magazines? At least. Say 46 rounds, of the most popular calibre 9mm. And maybe a long gun, stored in the Police Car, or more normal now, an SUV. With all-wheel drive.

    Anyone see themselves up there? Going to Publix for groceries, with a companion, a Wife in my case, who unlike a Police partner, is not loaded, and equip, just like you, if a Cop.

    At one time I studied as many shootings as I could, to see what trends I could analyze, to see what these violent occasions could tell me? You guessed it, a crap shoot. One criminal, or a gang! Early morning, or late at night. Snowstorm, or 95 F, in a rainstorm! And dressed to suit all trends and weather conditions. WOW!

    So I got realistic in my choices, according to me. A 9mm Glock 19. Night sights, 4.5 lb trigger, 147g hollow point rounds, 16! And a just in case, a spare magazine, with 17 rounds. OWB Holster, under a cover garment, Florida shirt, sweater, coat.

    Why such a big gun? Why 16, plus 17 = 33 rounds? Because I can. And conceal it well.
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  5. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    Because I can.
    'Nuff said.
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  6. #140
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    I carry what I carry because it's my choice, not because what LEO or the military uses. I prefer full size handguns because I shoot them better than compacts or pocket pistols. I carry ammo that has proven track records such as HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, or Ranger T. I don't believe I have to mimic what LEO carries. If I did, I would probably carry a Glock. Not that there's anything wrong with a Glock, many agencies carry them because they get Blue Label prices, not because they are necessarily the best choice. Most agencies can't afford Sig P226's.

    I don't need extra reloads (unless I'm traveling to Memphis). I don't need level 3 holster retention, although I carry OWB concealed. I carry 40 S&W because that's my choice, not because someone tells my I'm all wrong, and need to dump it for 9mm. I may get off a little faster rounds with a 9mm, but I practice often with my 40, and can place shots in fairly tight groups with reasonable shot times.
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  7. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by flintlock62 View Post
    I carry what I carry because it's my choice, not because what LEO or the military uses. I prefer full size handguns because I shoot them better than compacts or pocket pistols. I carry ammo that has proven track records such as HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, or Ranger T. I don't believe I have to mimic what LEO carries. If I did, I would probably carry a Glock. Not that there's anything wrong with a Glock, many agencies carry them because they get Blue Label prices, not because they are necessarily the best choice. Most agencies can't afford Sig P226's.

    I don't need extra reloads (unless I'm traveling to Memphis). I don't need level 3 holster retention, although I carry OWB concealed. I carry 40 S&W because that's my choice, not because someone tells my I'm all wrong, and need to dump it for 9mm. I may get off a little faster rounds with a 9mm, but I practice often with my 40, and can place shots in fairly tight groups with reasonable shot times.
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  8. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    Are the gun/ammo needs of the armed citizen different than for a LEO?

    Now that seems like direct enough question? A Police Officer, in most cases, is issued firearms, according to his/her job description! In most of their daily lives/duties, these weapons stay cased or holstered.
    Because those tools of the trade, so to speak, only come in to play, when that job puts them into harm's way. Because they have no idea when, or how that is going to play out.
    Like any other trained tradesman, the tools you have is what you have. Hense, a Pistol has to have enough rounds on board, to cover incidents that have happened, somewhere, sometime.

    Plus on average, two spare fully loaded magazines? At least. Say 46 rounds, of the most popular calibre 9mm. And maybe a long gun, stored in the Police Car, or more normal now, an SUV. With all-wheel drive.

    Anyone see themselves up there? Going to Publix for groceries, with a companion, a Wife in my case, who unlike a Police partner, is not loaded, and equip, just like you, if a Cop.

    At one time I studied as many shootings as I could, to see what trends I could analyze, to see what these violent occasions could tell me? You guessed it, a crap shoot. One criminal, or a gang! Early morning, or late at night. Snowstorm, or 95 F, in a rainstorm! And dressed to suit all trends and weather conditions. WOW!

    So I got realistic in my choices, according to me. A 9mm Glock 19. Night sights, 4.5 lb trigger, 147g hollow point rounds, 16! And a just in case, a spare magazine, with 17 rounds. OWB Holster, under a cover garment, Florida shirt, sweater, coat.

    Why such a big gun? Why 16, plus 17 = 33 rounds? Because I can. And conceal it well.
    The other issue with magazine fed firearms is reliability. Murphy is always there and if a mag chokes a spare is virtually the only option. 2 choking, probably the gun then. Now for a Revolver guy??? Guess a backup would be wise. So someone who carries spare mags, or even a backup gun, may be more like the guy who carries jumper cables in their vehicle than a wannabe Rambo. It's not my place to judge.
    And I like your choices, I don't go to bad places, don't expect to see bad people but know they're out there. I've carried a G19 but my favorite is a M&P 2.0 in 45acp w/spare mag (but I carry it horizontal on the weak side appendix position). But sometimes the 642 finds it's way onto my hip. Now if I could find a good kydex, single clip IWB holster for a 4" N Frame I'd carry my 325!
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  9. #143
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    "I don't need extra reloads (unless I'm traveling to Memphis)"

    Or Helena, Arkansas 🙂

    Old shirt, I like your posts and sense of humor.
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  10. #144
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    It just depends on my mood when my day begins whether I'm good dropping a .32 or 9mak in my pocket for the day or reach over and grab my gun belt, detail boned pancake holster , the229 with 2 spare mags of 155 gold dots either way I can put up a fight, one way is a fighting retreat while the other give me the option of an offensive assault.....it's all more a state of mind than what is carried really, if the fecal matter collides with the rotary oscillator and I'm carrying a 5 shot snub and a Kershaw I'm still going to be the one dealing with it....
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  11. #145
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    I think most of this stuff boils down to "fanboy-ism".

    Handguns are a very minimalistic weapon and if we are fighting the same (human) badguy, I don't think the ammo needs are all that different. Do soldier have certain rules of war? sure.. Do Police have department policies surrounding weapons and ammo?.. sure. By that measure, their ammo choices may have to be different. It doesn't mean their choice is the best choice or that its what I should be doing. I will make a determination based on my own specific circumstances and what the law allows, that's it. Personally I don't give a flip what the police carry, what the FBI carries, what seal team six carries or what your garden variety space-shuttle door gunner carries. I have been hearing about what the FBI carries in their guns for decades and I don't recall it ever being what I carry in mine.

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  12. #146
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    I think that what most people have relied on is the testing that the military and LEO field has done on wound ballistics, along with governments having better access to AARs and autopsy reports, to inform their decisions about what equipment and ammo to issue. It becomes, "If they're using it, it must be pretty good, right?" However, most people don't stop to evaluate that other factors might have been in play when those decisions were made. Some examples would be cost ( X brand of ammo is a good bit less than Y brand, and while it only performed 3/4 as good in gel test, bean counters decide that's good enough ), one-size-fits-all mentality ( after all, they ARE a uniform service ) so what works for most reasonably well is what gets chosen, and the inevitable hard-headedness (aka bureaucracy) that can come with any organization (We've always used that, so why change now?)

    Right now, for the ordinary citizen, we are very lucky in the amount of information we can access to help us make a decision in this area. Also, only an individual can decide what they are willing to tolerate, such as weight, recoil factor, cost of weapon and ammo, accessorizing after initial purchase, etc. Other factors that can only be answered by the individual are things like usual mode of dress, weather in the area you spend most of your time in, likelyhood of conflict, etc. After carefully considering these type of things, you can usually narrow down your choices to one or a few different options.

    For me, I live in a small town with a population less than 15k. I've been living here for close to 20 years. In that time, I know of a few burglaries of residences or businesses, only one shooting and one business robbery. In this area, we have hot summers and usually mild winters. My mode of dress is usually very casual when away from work. For just around here, I feel comfortable with something like a J-Frame S&W with a speed-strip or a P365 with a spare mag. Going into the medium-large city that isn't too far away, knowing that feral animals run in packs, I'm much more likely to see the need for something like a K/N-Frame S&W or a Walther PPQ, again with spare ammo, because of the numerous rapes, robberies, aggravated assaults and homicides there. As for the ammo itself, I would feel comfortable with most of the brand name premium SD ammo, such as Gold Dots, HSTs or Golden Sabers and would carry whatever my weapon was most accurate with. There are no large predators or game animals, such as bears or moose, in this area, so I don't feel the need for anything above a .41 Magnum in my handgun selection.

    In the end, only an individual can answer what their needs are and what they feel will meet those requirements.

  13. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldshirt View Post
    That's a fair point about LEO off duty.

    I'm not sure what the prevailing policy and mentality of police departments is today, but back in the rural, midwestern area I grew up in 20-30 years ago, LEOs were never truly 'off duty' and were expected to intervene and prevail if they encountered an event off duty as well as on. The departments in my area required off duty carry and ID etc.

    Which kind of begs the question of what are a lot of LEOs carrying off duty on their personal time? And is that question even being muddied by the fact that a lot of departments also mandate what can and what cannot be carried off duty?
    I'll kind've take this as a two-parter, with the first concerning the OP's original line and the second about LEOs today. The role of the military should not even be in the equation, as the military carries out offensive operations even more than defensive ops. Civilians do not carry out offensive ops unless they are looking to go to jail. However, when the military does start to go out on a patrol, their weapon choices almost always start off with a rifle/carbine of some type and grenades, usually provided by the country they serve.

    As a civilian, you are only limited by the law and your finances as to what you carry. If you live in a small town where they roll up the sidewalk at 6pm, the sheriff is Andy Taylor and Otis knows where the keys are at the jail, you'll probably feel more than well-heeled with a derringer or a snub-nose revolver, even with reloads. Live in "da 'hood" and have to walk home from the bus station at 1am and you might feel the need for a Glock 19 and a BUG, with reloads for both, especially since the feral types run in packs and might be toting an AK amongst the bunch. It's just a matter of a particular person analyzing their own situation and abilities.

    As for the LEOs of today, here's my experience. Depts., at least the larger ones, now tell their people to be the good witness, unless someone is about to get killed, because they don't have their armor, their radio to call for help, handcuffs, etc. In that, the depts. do have a point in that you will be out there alone, with no help coming, no one knowing what's going on and you probably having very little in the way of equipment compared to when you are on duty. There are a few "gun people" among the LEOs of today but they are becoming fewer each day. Most recruits of today have either no experience with firearms or very little before being hired. Even those officers working in the larger cities and seeing the carnage there everyday are more likely than not to go home at the end of the shift, pull the mag out of the weapon, then put the weapon on the top shelf of one side of the closet while the mag goes on the other side. Their sidearm gets cleaned once or twice a year, depending on how many times their dept. makes them qual during the year. Even if their dept. has an open range and gives out free ammo to practice with, if only a few boxes a year, you're not going to see them out there when they can be doing something else with their free time. Most officers today, even if their dept. will give them bonus days off for shooting higher scores, will only practice enough to get a pass grade on their qual. I won't even mention that most depts. don't have a shooting team anymore, in many cases from sparse participation. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is just the way things are nowadays.

  14. #148
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    In most cases LEO carry what they are told to carry. Both ammo and weapons. A bean counter,COP, city counsel someone makes that call. That is how so many ended up with glocks , they offered them dirt cheap to LE to build a name. Lot like the Army you use what they give you.
    Yes my needs are different. I choose to CC most of the time. For that reason I carry a smaller slimmer and lighter weapon. In a prefect world LEO would get what ever they wanted. Not one size fits all . I donated a very good AR15 to a Department that had a Discount one that was purchased for them. It really upset me that they were give a 4 moa weapon.
    Would you want to be a LEO that was on a shooting team, had a paper trail showing you were a great shot. Now you are in front of some cash chasing lawyer in court explaining why some thing did not go movie perfect?
    Officer Jones why did you not just shoot my client in the hand. Will have you seen my qual card I have a hard enough time hitting a car.
    Everything about a private citizen and a LEO is different
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