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Are the gun/ammo needs of the armed citizen different than for a LEO?

10K views 150 replies 54 participants last post by  Fizban 
#1 ·
over the years I have seen various debates over whether one should carry the Phased Pulse Rifle in the 40 Watt Range vs the Hyper Eliminator Extreme 5000 etc etc and it is very common that people will use police shooting statistics or reference what guns and ammo police use and then someone will always mention their cousin Sid who did 4 tours in (insert foreign battle ground) as an Airborne Special Delta Recon Ranger with the Navy Seals that says anything less than an Ionized Magna Disintegrator Plus is a waste of money and is only good for chasing away baby mice.

I think it is natural that trends in the civil population will be influenced by what is taking place in the police and military world and I dig the latest and greatest firearm developments just as much as the next shooting enthusiast.... But is that always a good thing or not?

So much question is, is the gun/ammo of choice for an LEO or soldier the best choice for a responsibly armed citizen or are the needs and conditions and scenarios of the common citizen better served with something else???

Sure, If I am going to be fast-roping onto the rooftop of foreign embassy to rescue hostages from a band of fanatical terrorists eager to get their 40 vestal virgins, I'll take Cousin Sid's word that the Ionized Disintegrator Plus is probably the thing to have. And if I'm going to be making a forced entry into a meth lab being operated by some Columbian cartel then I'd be glad to have the Phased Pulse Rifle in the 40 Watt Range.

But what if I'm coming home from the office and my wife txts me to pick up a gallon of milk at Quick Trip?? Or what if she's dragging me to the latest Amy Schumer chick flick at the local metroplex theater at night? Or God forbid need to run up to the ATM at night because I promised my teenaged daughter that she could go out with friends and I told her that I'd give her cash if she cleaned out the catbox and emptied the dishwasher without nagging or any back talk? What about those dangers?

Assuming I'm not HALO jumping into a foreign battle fields or raiding drug labs, is there a gun/ammo combination that better addresses the threats that I could more realistically face at a convenience store, mall, ATM or commuting expressway??

Glock 17s and Sig P320s are good guns and I'd like to have one of each. But is there something that BETTER serves me as a Workaday Joe Six Pack than the current side arms of professional police officers and soldiers?

I'm not really asking if this model or that model is "adequate" for a Joe Six Pack vs carrying a standard police or military side arm. I am asking if there is something BETTER that addresses the realistic threats and scenarios that a common Joe Six Pack might face as he carries on his normal daily activities??
 
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#5 ·
No, no point to make.

My question is exactly what I asked.

I know there is no one end-all-be-all answer so I am mostly wanting to foster open discussion and debate to gather a variety of thoughts and perspectives.

As for the sarcasm, I've probably just seen a few too many testosterone-infused youtube videos of guys that seem to want to sell us on weaponry designed for foreign battle fields and urban jungles. Since we are beginning to live in a world of purpose-made guns made specifically for a certain task such as competition, hunting, police duty, home defense, concealed carry etc etc

So my question is what are all of your thoughts on if there are certain guns/ammo that fit the needs and purpose of the common citizen better than many of the service guns on the market today.
 
#4 ·
From a manufacturing stand point it doesn't make much of a cost sense to change between white box stuff that gos out to LE agency .vs a box that has cool pictures on it for marketing reasons as it sits in a Walmart cabinet to draw your attention with cool ballistic information and pictures of perfect expansion. A 124 HST projectile is a 124 HST projectile is a 124 HST projectile.
 
#6 ·
I think the "Carry what LE carries" ammo song is a bit over done, seeing how often agencies change ammo sources. I don't know what my local PD carries and really don't care. I carry common name-brand SD ammo that any Joe Blow on the street might pick up at the LGS.

As for gun choice, if I could openly carry whatever gun I wanted on a duty belt, then I might carry something other than what I carry now.
 
#19 ·
As for gun choice, if I could openly carry whatever gun I wanted on a duty belt, then I might carry something other than what I carry now.
But I wonder if the opposite ends up being the case for the citizen.

The LEO/soldier is mandated on what he/she carries, how he carries it, when/how/how much he trains and goes on and off duty at specified times.

The citizen can carry whatever he/she wants (with accordance to the law) but in order for him/her to actually carry it, they have to want to carry it and usually boils down to comfort and their personal dress preference.

Additionally, a citizen is never truly off duty. Life is not a shift, it is 24/7 so any particular gun is going to have to fit into their lifestyle as they see fit, it isn't something that is decided by their superiors.
 
#10 ·
I suspect that if you find enough time to read extensively on this forum, you'll find an answer to your question.

However, only you can define the circumstances you might face. What others might face may be world's different, or not. Read a lot on here and you'll find what guns we carry. Hint: we carry a bunch of different ones. You'll also discover what loads most of us prefer. I suspect somewhere in that array there will be something that will serve your situation.

Ultimately the final answer for you may be:it depends.
 
#11 ·
I normally carry a 5 shot revolver, sometimes 2. Sometimes I'll carry a j frame in my front left pocket and a bigger one, example Ruger sp101, iwb right side.

Sometimes I'll carry a 357 magnum (5 shot) iwb with a speed loader and a speed strip in my right front pocket. This is my favorite setup.

For the last couple of months I've been trying to like a Springfield xde 45, but I'm having a hard time doing so. I just feel better with a revolver and I can shoot them a lot better. I love me a heavy, double action trigger.

So ya, I pretty much carry what the police do. (The police of the 1950s) lol
 
#24 ·
Your post is ridiculous until you get to the end. HALO, FRIES, Airborne Special Delta Recon Ranger with the Navy Seals.... All this shows is that you've watched one too many videos, The History Channel or similar.
That was kind of my admittedly sarcastic point. I think everyone has watched too many videos of guys in tight Affliction t-shirts and goatees and too many History Channel shows on combatting terrorists and drug cartels.

They're not wrong per se and the guns they use are fine weapons for that mission.

But my mission is getting that gallon of milk and loaf of bread home from the corner convenience store safely.

The Glock 17 is a fine pistol as is the Sig. But the LEO and Soldier are mandated on what they carry and their mission has specific parameters. Are they even practical or appropriate for a citizen to have on their person all the time as they go about their daily activities?

Citizens choose their own and never know when or even if they will ever even be used in a lifetime.
 
#16 ·
Oldshirt, carry what feels reasonable to you. Only you can determine what makes you feel secure. I carry a Sig P229 with a spare magazine. I cast no aspersions on those who carry a 1911, or those who carry a 5 shot snub nose revolver.
 
#17 ·
I can only speak for myself here, but my needs and my likes sometimes conflict, with me choosing my likes over need.

And sometimes, situation and environment forces a decision that does not allow the likes to be chosen.

Case in point; pictured here are two guns that perfectly represent like and need.
Gun Firearm Trigger Handgun holster Gun accessory



On the left, my Colt Commander is my likes, but often times the S&W BG carried in a pocket meets my needs in reality.
The BG went to Church with me this morning along with a spare mag.

When I got home, I switched over to my Colt which accompanied me the rest of the day.

So yeah, in reality I believe that a pocket sized gun is reasonable for edc. But the Colt 45 is more favored, and probably just as important, provides more psychological assurance, along with a ballistic advantage.
 
#23 ·
What the military uses has no application to civilians in the US. Even the majority of any SF group only know what they were taught and what they used about guns/ammo. LE is a little more applicable because the same criminals they encounter are the same ones we encounter.

Drug use and mental illness has not really increased much in the last 5 decades, we just see it more often due to the 24 hour instant news cycle. Though there has been tremendous research on bullets in the last 30 years there are still no magic bullets (except the 357 magnum, its magic).

What you need to know is that in an armed encounter you are on your own until the cops get there and then you can be seen as a threat. This could take 3 minutes or 13 minutes, roll the dice..... When the cops get there you want it over or your gun out of sight.

I carry a full size Glock or revolver 95% of the time and a J frame 357 mag the other 5%. I advise people to carry the biggest, most powerful gun they can conceal and shoot well.
 
#77 ·
What the military uses has no application to civilians in the US. Even the majority of any SF group only know what they were taught and what they used about guns/ammo. LE is a little more applicable because the same criminals they encounter are the same ones we encounter.

Drug use and mental illness has not really increased much in the last 5 decades, we just see it more often due to the 24 hour instant news cycle. Though there has been tremendous research on bullets in the last 30 years there are still no magic bullets (except the 357 magnum, its magic).

:haha:

What you need to know is that in an armed encounter you are on your own until the cops get there and then you can be seen as a threat. This could take 3 minutes or 13 minutes, roll the dice..... When the cops get there you want it over or your gun out of sight.

I carry a full size Glock & revolver 100% of the time. I advise people to carry the biggest, most powerful gun they can conceal and shoot well.
I DO! My Daily carry. BUT, my needs are DIFFERENT than MOST ALL others here!

Firearm Gun Trigger Revolver Gun barrel
 
#26 ·
My principal carry arms vary from a .38 J frame to a .45 Shield to a 5-inch 1911 in .45. On rare occasions I have to downsize to a Kel-Tec P32.

Re ammunition, the FBI has led the way with developing smart requirements, and manufacturers have paid attention. We are blessed to have ample choices available which meet FBI criteria, and the research is out there on the web for all to read and digest.

What local/state LE agencies use is interesting but not a "driver" for me, as local budgets may demand lesser/cheaper ammo than the FBIs standards.
 
#28 ·
OP: Loved the tone of your query. You asked a question here without starting a gun type or caliber flame war. Well done.

As to your question(s)… The guns that LEO or military carry have no bearing on what I carry daily. What I carry fits my hand well, conceals well, and I know its manual of arms inside-and-out.

As for ammo, a JHP from any reputable manufacturer will get the job done. All of the press about high-end specialty rounds are IMHO is hyperbole from the manufacturers to make more money.
 
#30 ·
I think Wally World and the highway commute are the two most dangerous places I go. And both are still pretty safe. So I feel pretty comfortable with a 38 J frame. Now when I lived in town, in a neighborhood that was fast becoming a hood, I carried a full sized gun with as big a mag as I could get. A BHP or a S&W model 59 were favorites back then.
These days CA makes me choose from only four guns on my carry permit. And I have only carried two out of the four in the last 10 years. The J frame S&W 642 and a Beretta model 70. Both are pocket sized.
Both would repel boarders if I were stopped in traffic or make someone get off of me in a parking lot. Neither of those places I could see becoming an extended gun battle! But that's just me! DR
 
#32 ·
I carry what I feel confident in, both ammo and pistol. Usually a 1911 or a Sig 938 if I pocket carry. Ammo is usually armor piecing rounds( just kidding). Hornady Critical Duty.
 
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#37 ·
As John Farnam says, "When it's least expected, you're elected!"
 
#39 ·
In terms of self-defense, I don't think my "needs" are much different from that of a LEO. The same street rats threaten us all. Fortunately, I don't have to try to apprehend them, and I'm less likely to need to shoot through barriers.

As far as doing BETTER than what a cop carries, I don't have to carry a gun with a 12-pound NYPD trigger (mandated for "safety") that leads to headlines like "the police fired 47 rounds and hit the suspect once in the leg". I don't have to carry a gun that feels like a 2x4 in my hand because that's what the department issues. I can carry a gun that fits me, that conceals well, and that I shoot somewhat competently. That's better.
 
#84 · (Edited)
In terms of self-defense, I don't think my "needs" are much different from that of a LEO. The same street rats threaten us all. Fortunately, I don't have to try to apprehend them, and I'm less likely to need to shoot through barriers.

As far as doing BETTER than what a cop carries, I don't have to carry a gun with a 12-pound NYPD trigger (mandated for "safety") that leads to headlines like "the police fired 47 rounds and hit the suspect once in the leg". I don't have to carry a gun that feels like a 2x4 in my hand because that's what the department issues. I can carry a gun that fits me, that conceals well, and that I shoot somewhat competently. That's better.
How the Police Association, with thousands of dues-paying members, allowed that 12lb trigger stupidity to pass? I don't know!
The trigger that comes from the factory on a Glock 19 (a common choice in NYC) is around 5.5lb weight. A manageable trigger. not 12lb. Absolute stupidity.

I have just read every post, 7 pages? I am in a quandary! My constant companion for years, Glock 19, 1 spare magazine.
Recently bought a Glock 43X, which is perfect for concealed carry, slim, good factory fitted night sights Ameriglow.
But, I have gone back to my Glock 19, 4th Gen. TruGlo night sights, smooth trigger, extended slide lock (Factory) I snipped the bottom corner off the magazine release, it dug into my second finger. Flush fit butt plug improves mag changes.

This same pistol I have shot thousands of rounds through in IDPA matches. It conceals well in a cheap Glock $13.00!
Belt Slide. Not a blemish on the slide, deep black, is there such a finish?
I shoot this gun well, it is not too big, or too heavy for all-day carry, I do not feel it.

I do not walk around in a tissy, hand hovering over the holster, been in dozens of physical fights! 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK. And a few, not paid ones! The last one, in an elevator, with a young man who expressed a desire to "Hug" my Wife of 26 years, I was 69 YOA! Just bounced him off the cart protecting wooden bar, on the rear wall.

I have shown pistols as a method of stopping physical harm, 5 times, once in England, once in Aden, 3 times in the USA! A lot? Well, I am 83 YOA!

I met Jeff Cooper when my Son was 18, on his Ranch, during a break in his training my son was the same height as Col. Cooper. Took his written word as gospel "Carry a gun, always" when I could, which is now.

Reference the comment, about taking a Wife in a parking lot? I back in, when possible, walk my Wife to her door, eyes all around! Pop her door, help her in, she is old too! Lock and slam her door. Pop my door, lock and close it. Drive off.

It is not good manners only (I am English!) but in the 10 seconds it takes your Wife to walk around the vehicle, the whole world can change! And we always hold hands! My left!
 
#45 ·
When I was a cop, we knew the hoods carried $6 RG10s....22 short. Once in awhile a .32 or .38....and only the Panthers carried heavy arms...that was 95% true. Then we started seeing young teens still in high school carrying Hi-Powers and S&W, and Uzis...the drug business provided more money and need to protect the stash. Then the gangs/bikers might carry an occasional shotgun...might...mostly handguns...something that could be ditched easily.

NOW? It's common that KIDS in gangs have AKs, other long arms, hi-cap pistols of 9 and 40 and, for those more discerning, the .45 are common...with plenty of mags. Once again...drugs provide the money...and other crimes.

So...back in the 70s, I went from one and a backup to three and over 100 rounds for them...and a coupla boxes more of .357 and a box of slugs and one of buckshot in the briefcase. I went 8 years and never fired one round. I had radios that might work or not...never counted on help showing up. Now, I travel with two and a third and a long gun if working in certain areas, or travelling 50-60 miles away. I have about 80 rounds on me, more in the truck. I have no radio, still don't expect help. In the 40 years since I quit policing, I haven't fired a round at a hoomin bean.

Then, and now, I carry more than a lot of folks...choice and no bother. I like guns/ammo like I like ice cream some and more.
 
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