Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force? - Page 3

Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force?

This is a discussion on Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Rock and Glock Friends don't let friends use Google. Use Duck Duck Go. When one has an articulable fear the threat rises ...

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Thread: Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    Friends don't let friends use Google.

    Use Duck Duck Go.

    When one has an articulable fear the threat rises to the level of being an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm and or death.

    I would certainly try escape first, on foot if necessary, but as an old man I have slowed mobility and limited attitude.
    I tried D-D-Go and could never get it to do what I wanted and gave up.

    FL law states: "A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using or threatening to use defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that personís will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    So "technically," Once a road rager grabbed the vehicle door handle and pulls, he has crossed over into the deadly force danger zone. Of course, circumstances can change all that, such as who started what and how - why. But even if one initiated the event, having retreated to the vehicle, entered, and locked the doors to protect one's self could be argued to having retreated to one's "castle" with no further retreat from attack possible.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
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  2. #32
    Member Array Nifty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Iím going to do everything that the subject ď permitsĒ me to do, before I am going to take a human life.

    If that means exiting and running running away from the scene by exiting the other side of the vehicle, and calling 911, I will do it.

    .....if I can do it without putting myself in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, or my passengers.

    A call to the insurance company is a lot easier and cheaper than hiring an attorney, and having to deal with the very real emotional trauma and social stigma that comes with taking deadly force action; and thatís not even talking about the effects that possible legal actions could bring if a factor.

    My rule of thumb, is swallow my pride and walk or run if possible.

    Ultimately, the aggressor gets to decide how far he pushes or threatens.

    This

  3. #33
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    I tried D-D-Go and could never get it to do what I wanted and gave up.
    Keep trying. I do very technical research as well as crazy stream of consciousness social type searches, and resort to Google rarely. Practice makes better.

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    Use of Deadly Force
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  5. #34
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    In my state, if you hold a good faith belief, based upon objective facts, that you are in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, or worse, you may use whatever force is needed, up to and including deadly force, to repel the attack.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Many documented cases?
    I don't know about documented cases, but a couple of attorneys have told be that it's better if law enforcement gets your version of events first. Since I have a heart condition, they also suggest it might be prudent to go to the hospital and get checked out after such a stressful situation. That will usually suspend questioning until one of them can get there.
    Simplistic solutions to complex problems seldom produce satisfying results.

  7. #36
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    Saw this story this afternoon. The driver drove away when he felt threatened. Worked out for him against the hatchet man. Always try to leave enough room when stopped to maneuver around the car in front of you if needed.

    The dash cam video from a passing car even shows the road-rager throwing the hatchet at the truck as it drove off.

    https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dr...xYoeN-DMhSJqu4

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAS1 View Post
    Saw this story this afternoon. The driver drove away when he felt threatened. Worked out for him against the hatchet man. Always try to leave enough room when stopped to maneuver around the car in front of you if needed.

    The dash cam video from a passing car even shows the road-rager throwing the hatchet at the truck as it drove off.

    https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dr...xYoeN-DMhSJqu4
    These are not good times to jump out of your car and start swinging a hatchet as someone. What makes a fool like that think he can do that without getting some holes poked in his chest? He must have a guardian angel looking after him or this was just his lucky day.

  9. #38
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    When to use deadly force? Before this happens:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/westmin...ay-2018-06-14/
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  10. #39
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    One thing I didn't see in this discussion, perhaps I missed it, is something that needs to be considered. The OP's question depends a lot on if you, as the defender, had anything at all, even the slightest thing, to do with starting the argument. It's not as obvious a question as it seems. You might have acted in a way you consider proper, calm and rationale, but what will the rager say? What will some passenger in his car say?

    There is generally something that triggers these ragers, even if it is innocuous to the victim and that can get twisted out of proportion in later testimony. Now you can't go around anticipating what might happen, of course. But if you are going to shoot a rager, you need to be darn sure no one can say you had anything to do with starting the fight.

    We had an SD case in Richmond a few years back where a murder charge went all the way to trial and a final verdict. The prosecutor tried to throw out the SD claim, maintaining that the defender had started the altercation by honking his horn at the attackers because they were blocking his way, at another location earlier in the evening. The attackers followed him home and assaulted him and he shot them both. But the defender still got charged with murder. He got off, but it went down to the wire.
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  11. #40
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    I appreciate the common sense on this forum, good replies to this thread. I read a post this afternoon on Facebook, that was disturbing, and I read the same type of comments on all forms of social media. A woman complained of a man trying to pick her up in a store, she rejected his offer. She claimed he kept surveilling her after that. Then her conversation shifted to guns and 'putting him down.' Several people chimed in talking about guns and what they would do if the man, 'messed with them.' The greatest danger to our right to carry is people with no emotional control and no knowledge of the law.
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    I appreciate the common sense on this forum, good replies to this thread. I read a post this afternoon on Facebook, that was disturbing, and I read the same type of comments on all forms of social media. A woman complained of a man trying to pick her up in a store, she rejected his offer. She claimed he kept surveilling her after that. Then her conversation shifted to guns and 'putting him down.' Several people chimed in talking about guns and what they would do if the man, 'messed with them.' The greatest danger to our right to carry is people with no emotional control and no knowledge of the law.
    Like the GA woman who fired her gun in as fast-food joint because her fries were cold? That kind?
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    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
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    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAS1 View Post
    Here's an example.

    This guy in the article may certainly have been 100% innocent and I am not suggesting otherwise but lets talk about this fairly for a moment


    Perhaps the other guy [did] call 911 and went on record as the victim but aside from that, I think its important to consider the process by which someone determined PC to arrest before we attribute too much emphasis on the race to the phone.

    If you are suggesting that the police based their probable cause determination solely on a race to the phone, what specific facts exist in evidence that support that belief? Is that what the police said? I think it would be reasonable to say that most fair minded people could argue that in circumstances where the historical/habitual veracity of the persons "word" is not well established- a simple accusation by itself is not likely to rise to the level of probable cause. Sure, PC is a very subjective determination and is such a low standard that it doesn't take much to meet that standard but still, if we do not know how they constructed it in this instance, it not really fair to say that it was based on a race to the phone.
    Last edited by Fizban; July 24th, 2019 at 08:53 PM.
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