Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force?

Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force?

This is a discussion on Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello Everyone. I am relatively new to posting but has been on the site for a while and I tried to do a detailed search ...

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Thread: Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force?

  1. #1
    Member Array rssoone's Avatar
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    Approaching your car - road rage - when to use deadly force?

    Hello Everyone.

    I am relatively new to posting but has been on the site for a while and I tried to do a detailed search but couldn't really find what I was looking for.

    I live in TX and wanted to know at what point do you defend yourself in a road rage scenario? If someone approaches your car there are some obvious things to do/not do. Keep windows up , don't get out of your car, try to leave the scene, don't escalate the situation by retaliating/provoking. So if you can't escape in your vehicle and the bad guy tries to break window and is relentless to get to you... is that grounds to use deadly force?

    Thanks for the input.

    RS
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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    It's very hard to give an exact answer to that question but in my case, when he smashes my window the price of poker just went up.

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    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rssoone View Post
    So if you can't escape in your vehicle and the bad guy tries to break window and is relentless to get to you... is that grounds to use deadly force?
    I would say yes, this would be considered an imminent thread of serious bodily harm or worse. You are right in your other assumptions, too. Do not provoke or be a party in the escalation of such an encounter. Try to get away in any way you can, as long as you can do this safely. Drive to a police station, fire station, or a highly populated place, if you can. If the encounter has really taken a turn for the worse and you believe you are in serious danger, use whatever means are available to you to stop the attack. Run over the assailant or use your sidearm if you must to stop the attack.

    And while this is all going on, try to call 911 and keep them on the line. Your call will be recorded and could very well be your saving grace if you have to go to court (criminal or civil).
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

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    Is it an 80-something-year-old man using his cane, or a crack-head with a cinder block?

    Just one of many possible examples of "it depends".
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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    If someone is trying to breaking into my window to get to me and has the means to do so . . . one of us has got to go.
    So who is this Will that everybody fires at, what did he do, and how come he's not dead yet??

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I’m going to do everything that the subject “ permits” me to do, before I am going to take a human life.

    If that means exiting and running running away from the scene by exiting the other side of the vehicle, and calling 911, I will do it.

    .....if I can do it without putting myself in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, or my passengers.

    A call to the insurance company is a lot easier and cheaper than hiring an attorney, and having to deal with the very real emotional trauma and social stigma that comes with taking deadly force action; and that’s not even talking about the effects that possible legal actions could bring if a factor.

    My rule of thumb, is swallow my pride and walk or run if possible.

    Ultimately, the aggressor gets to decide how far he pushes or threatens.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
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    It is going to depend upon your state’s laws and the circumstances. Based upon the scenario of the OP in PA you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force. PA has a Castle Doctrine which amounts to a limited stand-your-ground statute. Below I have posted the basis of that law and in the last part I have underlined the fact that the law applies to your vehicle.

    The General Assembly finds that:
    (1) It is proper for law-abiding people to protect
    themselves, their families and others from intruders and
    attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for
    acting in defense of themselves and others.
    (2) The Castle Doctrine is a common law doctrine of
    ancient origins which declares that a home is a person’s
    castle.
    (3) Section 21 of Article I of the Constitution of
    Pennsylvania guarantees that the “right of the citizens to
    bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be
    questioned.”
    (4) Persons residing in or visiting this Commonwealth
    have a right to expect to remain unmolested within their
    homes or vehicles.

    (5) No person should be required to surrender his or her
    personal safety to a criminal, nor should a person be
    required to needlessly retreat in the face of intrusion or
    attack outside the person’s home or vehicle
    .
    Check your state law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I’m going to do everything that the subject “ permits” me to do, before I am going to take a human life.

    If that means exiting and running running away from the scene by exiting the other side of the vehicle, and calling 911, I will do it.

    .....if I can do it without putting myself in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, or my passengers.

    A call to the insurance company is a lot easier and cheaper than hiring an attorney, and having to deal with the very real emotional trauma and social stigma that comes with taking deadly force action; and that’s not even talking about the effects that possible legal actions could bring if a factor.

    My rule of thumb, is swallow my pride and walk or run if possible.

    Ultimately, the aggressor gets to decide how far he pushes or threatens.
    If retreating is an option, I'm all for it, even when not required by law.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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    Here's the Texas law about that:
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
    (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31;
    and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force;
    or
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
    (b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
    (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
    (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
    Hope that helps.

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array MB53's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    In Texas deadly force is allowed to defend against deadly force. There are variables involving night time, property, kidnapping, and family, as well as one's vehicle, but the law is very clear on when deadly force can be used. Anything justifying less than deadly force is 'force against force'. And, as other's have mentioned, a retreating option is also part of the equation. And a deadly force against force scenario will get you a fast pass to Hunstville.
    It's probably a good idea, in the OP's case, to read the Texas penal code.

    But if someone is beating on your car window and you use deadly force to stop it, you'll probably end up with a murder charge against you, despite whatever actions led up to the use of deadly force. Now, if he broke the glass and reached in and started bludgeoning you with some type of weaponized item, then you are justified.

    BTW: That very scenario was one of the first challenged LTC cases in Texas back in the '90s and the shooter was no billed by the Dallas DA; Man pulls to a stop at a busy intersection after exiting the freeway. Bad actor rushes the vehicle and begins beating on the driver's window, breaks glass, and viciously assaults the driver with a weaponized object. The driver pulls his licensed EDC and shoots assailant, killing him. No charges filed against the driver.

    If that driver had shot the guy while he was beating on the window, even if he had broken the window, but had nothing in his hands that could be used as a weapon, the driver would have likely been charged with murder.
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    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    If retreating is an option, I'm all for it, even when not required by law.
    We are not a duty to retreat state. However with that said, I believe prudence and common sense should prevail in certain situations. If I can remove myself safely from a situation that is quickly escalating into something bad, that is what I am going to do if at all possble. The gunfight you never have is the one you will always win. Let those who would do stupid things pay the price for their stupidity. I'm not about to play Matt Dillon on Gunsmoke if I don't have to.
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    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

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    VIP Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Shooting someone is a VERY LAST RESORT. But, if you absolutely need to shoot, then shoot.......
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    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

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    Member Array m5215's Avatar
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    One thing I learned about dealing with road rage from others is that if it looks like a serious situation contact the police right away and be the first one to report it. There have been cases where the person or people instigating a road rage incident went ahead and reported to the police that the other person started it especially if you brandish a weapon in defense then they will report that you are threatening them with it. The police will come out and apprehend you rather then the others since they will assume you started the incident since a report came in first from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    We are not a duty to retreat state. However with that said, I believe prudence and common sense should prevail in certain situations. If I can remove myself safely from a situation that is quickly escalating into something bad, that is what I am going to do if at all possble. The gunfight you never have is the one you will always win. Let those who would do stupid things pay the price for their stupidity. I'm not about to play Matt Dillon on Gunsmoke if I don't have to.
    We aren't in disagreement. As long as one remains within the vehicle, Ohio isn't duty to retreat, either.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it depends.

    IF you are completely blameless in a road rage incident and there are credible witnesses to that effect, AND given the situation as you described it exactly, using deadly force would PROBABLY be justified. A great deal depends on a lot of factors that should have no place in a question of self defense. I think you understand what I mean. Where the event occurs is also an issue. The public is probably going to weigh in - either for, or usually against, you.

    Generally speaking, using deadly force outside your home against a person who has used a recognized form of deadly force against you, is justified. If you did anything to aggravate the circumstances, no.

    Since the incident in question, as you describe it, sounds as if it has already happened, call it a day and give thanks that you get to go home. And please understand, I am not a lawyer. (That the good Lord!)

    You can call the non-emergency number and request a police officer, or supervisor, to meet with you and advise you of your rights as seen through the eyes of those who would handle such a call. That would give you a much better idea of how such an event would go down.

    EDIT And a final note. Being on the phone with 911 DURING such an event (even if only having the speakerphone on) will contribute greatly in determining the outcome as that call is recorded. Many of us are considering a dashcam, which is even more effective.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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